God does exist.
Offline Matter cannot perceive because it is purely mechanical (assumption). Lifeforms can do more than just exist, lifeforms can perceive as they think and react. You can say that the behavior of life form corresponds directly to the transfer of energies in the mind but where exactly (which molecule) corresponds to the time when the observer observes?
Even if you could find the energy transfer that matches up to the nanosecond that you perceive, what good would that do? You would only have found a single atomic particle that corresponds to you perceiving.
As a thought experiment, lets take a human mind, and trim it down as much as possible.
This perceiving mind:
1. Cannot reproduce (reproduction is unnecessary for consciousness)
2. Cannot think logically (problem solving abilities is not necessary for consciousness).
3. Cannot react to any action (The action-reaction model is not necessary for consciousness).
This perceiving entity has been trimmed down from a capable complex box of nodes and wires (a sentient being) to a single perceiving node, one atom or molecule without a connecting wire. It does nothing but the thing responsible for humans observing their own machinery.
So our trimmed down sentient being (single atom) is sent a signal! The scientist brings another atomic particle nearby to the perceiving molecule (or atom), the molecule observes the neighbor molecule, registers the proximity, and promptly does nothing about it.
I observe the transfers of energy in my mind, I watch the energies travel along wires, I watch them come and go, surge and deminish,
Where am I in my mind? It's the problem of consciousness, and until you guys can educate me about where conscious is, I will believe that an entity beyond our understanding is responsible for preserving my consciousness in this medium of matter.
*runs*
The idea that we should believe something because its true does not come naturally to all people. People don't believe in things because they are true, they believe in them because they are useful. Holding a belief that runs contrary to reality can be a marker that binds you to the loyalty of a tribe. Belief=Belonging=Protection. We must take heed to well informed hostility lest the situation degrades to the point of war and we are mowed down by a force greater than ourselves.
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Actually it answers everything , consciousness is according to your answer a mechanical deterministic process that we understand and can build. Now how about your statement that we can not understand consciousness , isn’t this a little bit contradictory ? How can we create something that you clamed no human can understand ?
Thanks science (like in the sentence thanks god ) , I’m a determinist (free will is nonexistent for me , I’m a hard determinist ).
Again this is a answer that is a hard one on how can somebody have this free will if without a ability to save their new information they are running in a look and knowing one run of the look given the same questions you will know their answers and those in advance ?
YOU have a problem or are you using the word consciousness for a substitute for the word mechanism or function or determinism or process or reactions ?
PS I know how to debate I’m using simple logic like if we can create chat bots and chat bots are conscious then we must understand how consciousness works or we couldn’t build chat bots , you are going to lose ground my friend fast very fast.
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
He already ran away to the AI scrap yard.
Thanks for your quality assessment sentientmachine.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Don't know why he picked me out in particular. If he isn't high he's borderline psychotic. Not to mention not very bright.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I just had bacon cake over Thanksgiving break. It was amazing. I wonder how good it goes with chocolate cake with vanilla icing.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
I almost narfed coke onto my keyboard when I saw this.
What an awesome thing to say. I totally want the T-Shirt.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Okay. I've had chocolate with bacon, and it's surprisingly-good. But I was joking about the bacon cake. Really! I didn't mean it.
You scared me enough to google "bacon cake." Sure enough, there's tons of recipes for bacon cake. It's seems there's as many bacon cake recipes as there are bacon cake enthusiasts.
That's the last time I "invent" a food item as a joke. Srsly.
(As a side note: the Guinness stout / bacon cake sounds kinda good.)
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Hey man, don't you know? fat makes it magic!
I used to love my grandma's cooking, that shit was awesome, awesome.
Turns out that mother fucker was ladling lard into EVERYTHING!
I don't know how she's still alive...
Eden had a 25% murder rate and incest was rampant.
Nigel, for this discovery you are my new bestest friend in the entire universe.
Bacon. Cake.
Nothing more need ever be said.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I love dee cake!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=geekAYy5cp8
This makes my smile - and hungry
Honesty please, of the people who spoke on this thread, it's been 12 months since we have discussed the problem of consciousness, have you suffered any depression or thoughts of suicide? Have any of you committed suicide and have you generally felt good about life and the prospect of living another day? Has the problem of consciousness bothered you much in the last 12 months? Are you joyful?
My theory goes that fatalism and determinism is a blight on the evolved mind of evolved sentient humans everywhere. Great ability in reasoning and logic does not shield you from the internal off buttons in the mind. Did any of you accidentally press it with fatalism?
As for me, with my theism and hope and trust in a cosmic deity has made each day of mine almost cosmic. Each breath is wonderful. And i'm doing it all without narcotics and evil stuff. Just curious how die hard fatalists, determinists are faring. Are you happily married or single? Do you enjoy life? Is tomorrow a celebration or a prison without walls?
Just curious about the sustainability of strong atheism in humans exhibited on this thread, hope you guys are still around.
As for me, delusion and rationality aside, Jesus is an evolved mind program that can bring joy indescribable. Those ancients knew me, and they knew what makes me tick far better than any psychologist today.
This video captures the celebration of consciousness for me, the question hasn't bothered me at all since.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqx7lEru9mc
In one corner.....
Rational Responders. Website of people trying to get people off theism and to atheism, alive since it was started by Sapient rook and Mr X.
In the other corner....2800 years worth of Religious evolving thought custom made for humans as they are.
FIGHT!
Your love is deeper than the oceans,
higher than the heavens,
reaches beyond the stars in the sky.
Jesus, Your love has no bound.
The idea that we should believe something because its true does not come naturally to all people. People don't believe in things because they are true, they believe in them because they are useful. Holding a belief that runs contrary to reality can be a marker that binds you to the loyalty of a tribe. Belief=Belonging=Protection. We must take heed to well informed hostility lest the situation degrades to the point of war and we are mowed down by a force greater than ourselves.
Some days good, some days not as good. Y'know, like the rest of the humans.
Was that some kind of passive aggressive suicide assumption? Icky.
What, questions don't bother you any more? What's the fun in that? What do you have joy about, the status quo?
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Good. So I take it your fatalism, or a belief that your life ultimately has no meaning isn't affecting your mind negatively in the department of picking and achieving goals, depression levels and thoughts of suicide.
Lol maybe a little. I suppose it's a sin. But I read somewhere the fatalists suffer depression far more than those with a religious delusion that declares they have cosmic worth.
The questions I don't worry about (anymore) is the question of meaninglessness modifying motivation levels. maybe it's a function of older age. Fun has nothing to do with this, I'm interested in stability and productivity. I have joy in the fact that I am alive. It's the glands and mind working together as a whole and deciding to be happy because I have worth and what I do is valuable. It could be because evolution has caused males to feel happiness and joy when they feel worth because they receive it from praise from the sons and daughters. selecting that into the genome.
The program of "Jesus" and a genuine belief in it, regardless of truth, has given me that, and I feel I wouldn't have been able to do it without some kind of delusional belief.
What I would really like here is a fatalist to step up whom I debated with 12 months ago to come up and say yes, that fatalism has really had a negative effect on his consciousness, depression levels, motivation or something else. There is probably too much pride in a place like this for me to get that. We'll pray </s>
The idea that we should believe something because its true does not come naturally to all people. People don't believe in things because they are true, they believe in them because they are useful. Holding a belief that runs contrary to reality can be a marker that binds you to the loyalty of a tribe. Belief=Belonging=Protection. We must take heed to well informed hostility lest the situation degrades to the point of war and we are mowed down by a force greater than ourselves.
Did you prove this thing you call god exists? Or did I miss that part?
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Just because I can't empirically test and show you that an omniscient deity exists does not automatically follow that I am wrong. I believe I am unable to prove to you god exists due to my lack of understanding. Regardless, discussing such black and white terms as "does what I call god exist or not" is too complicated a question for any human to answer. I see it like bacteria trying to run crysis. I'm avoiding that question.
I want to discuss more easily measurable things, like how fatalism likely causes depression and suicidal behavior in young adults on account that males want to feel important in order to justify living. I want to discuss how fatalism and belief in cosmic deities affects real qualities of life like joy, happiness, and ability to have friends. With these topics we might come to an agreement on how we can improve the state of mankind.
Whether god exists or not is a dumb question, saying 'yes', 'no', or 'I don't know' are all inadequate answers leaving people more confused than when they started. Lets focus on actionable information.
Aiia, I get the feeling right off the top, before you even know me, that your angry or not satisfied with me for believing in something different than you. I have a hard time thinking that you are really trying to help people become all they can be. The reason I say this is because I see you re-routing the conversation away from the subject I brought up to a black and white question which is discussing the non existence of an intelligence as the source of the rule based engine called the universe. Your right, I didn't prove God exists, yet if your honest you acknowledge that the problem still exists. That question is: "Why am I here". What is consciousness and if consciousness is a state of matter then does the universe build my consciousness an infinite number of times?
Pay attention to me and I will give you ammo to destroy the basic thing that sustains and grows moderate Christianity in America, namely that belief in God causes mental health in human minds and that Atheism causes mental self destruction. The reason people keep going to church is because of this perception. Christianity grows not because of the existence of god, but because of the helpfulness of the idea of God. Aiia your focused on the fact, and ignore the most important bit, which is the end result of the action.
I'm keeping the conversation right where it is, aiia. Have you ever wanted to commit suicide or felt depressed or generally felt bogged down in life because of your thoughts on fatalism?
Listen and pay attention, and I give you the keys to your enemies gates. You can take down that which sustains all Religion. However in "getting" what I preach you, you run the risk of seeing a joy so great, so custom designed for you, that you will acknowledge as I do that atheism is a cute children's distraction that causes humans to miss the point of life entirely.
Your love is deeper, than the oceans higher, than the heavens, reaches beyond the stars in the sky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXWB9Njrkl4
The idea that we should believe something because its true does not come naturally to all people. People don't believe in things because they are true, they believe in them because they are useful. Holding a belief that runs contrary to reality can be a marker that binds you to the loyalty of a tribe. Belief=Belonging=Protection. We must take heed to well informed hostility lest the situation degrades to the point of war and we are mowed down by a force greater than ourselves.
Since my life has meaning, you must be talking about someone else.
Gee, I wonder where you read that.
Wow, that's vicious. Were they mean to you the last time you were here?
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Ew ! You're creepy.
Ironically that's what most Christians think about the agnostic/atheist world view that fatalism should be embraced and preached every chance we get even though it damages the evolved human mind. Creepy is a response one gets when they perceive a situation that can lead to damage. Like when a girl sees an unknown old man looking at her at the supermarket. Or maybe a haunted house where the person believes in ghosts. "Creepy" denotes a feeling of the anticipation of danger or pain. I have no intention of hurting anybody, well maybe, to render your worldviews as an error in judgment.
Regardless, anonymouse you shouldn't be feeling creepyness to me. The emotion you've felt, an anticipation of danger is wrong, though I come to destroy some things in your mind, I only have good intentions for you.
Did I just press an emotional button with an atheist? YES! Usually it's the other way around with the atheist pushing the Christian emotion button. I think I've removed all of my buttons. I come seeking to have my buttons pressed, to see if I left any open. Atheists are stupid because overall they push a worldview that can be proven to damage human minds through dwelling on incorrect thoughts of fatalism.
The idea that we should believe something because its true does not come naturally to all people. People don't believe in things because they are true, they believe in them because they are useful. Holding a belief that runs contrary to reality can be a marker that binds you to the loyalty of a tribe. Belief=Belonging=Protection. We must take heed to well informed hostility lest the situation degrades to the point of war and we are mowed down by a force greater than ourselves.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
It makes you as right as anyone else with fantastic claims and no evidence. Consider your deity in the same category as Lord Xenu and invisible underpants gnomes. At best.
Yes
Genetic Fallacy. Your comment fits the description: "Idea K came from place X, place X was created/made by a terrible awful something, therefore idea K is bad or lesser in worth".
Yes. Half the people here are very mean spirited (12 months ago on this thread) the people responding now seem a little nicer. I come to all those mean spirited people with a description of what causes them to be mean spirited and generally ineffective in converting people to their belief systems. It's fatalism I want to put on trial here and your all avoiding it.
I want to see the fruits of the atheist labors. I'm thinking I'm going to find a trail of destruction. Vicious? I suppose, but it's in the name of science and correcting wrong thinking. We want to stop the suicide, depression and ineffectiveness in humans, so we must leave out the emotional assessments.
The idea that we should believe something because its true does not come naturally to all people. People don't believe in things because they are true, they believe in them because they are useful. Holding a belief that runs contrary to reality can be a marker that binds you to the loyalty of a tribe. Belief=Belonging=Protection. We must take heed to well informed hostility lest the situation degrades to the point of war and we are mowed down by a force greater than ourselves.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Fallacy of Straw man takes the form. "Your idea Y is the same as idea W and idea X. W and X are obviously to be terrible ideas. Therefore Y is as bad too." The Straw man fallacy is convincing because of an implicit connection between Y and W,X. But there is little or no connection of contents, purposes or reasonableness for Y, W, and X.
You have to show that the idea of invoking an intelligence as the source and reason for consciousness has the same ridiculousness level as the idea that Lord Xenu is in a galaxy far away doing mean things to souls, or that invisible underpants gnomes are a problem for America. My idea has a scientific purpose, the ones you have none, so you are guilty of strawman fallacy.
The idea that we should believe something because its true does not come naturally to all people. People don't believe in things because they are true, they believe in them because they are useful. Holding a belief that runs contrary to reality can be a marker that binds you to the loyalty of a tribe. Belief=Belonging=Protection. We must take heed to well informed hostility lest the situation degrades to the point of war and we are mowed down by a force greater than ourselves.
That's a whole lot of assumptions you've got there, mate. Are they all for me ? Why, I'm touched.
Sorry, but when I saw the way you ended this discussion the last time you were here ( "In conclusion, you all suck" ) , I just had a hard time taking you seriously.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
This is an odd proposition, one that appears to be based on your emotional assessment of our beliefs, rather than an actual study of the results of our beliefs (or rather, our lack of belief in god and an afterlife). Do you have any peer-reviewed research to support this proposition?
From the Christian boards I have visited, Christians are far more vicious, and seem to have less fun, than most atheists on those same boards (or on this one, for that matter). I have not visited many Muslim or Hindu boards, so I can't speak to those belief systems. It does appear, though, that the attributes you ascribe to atheists here are just as apparent in Christians, at least.
Really? That's an odd assumption, that you'll find a trail of destruction. Again, this seems to be more of an emotional reaction on your part, rather than an emotionless assessment of the facts.
In my experience, atheism rarely leads to nihilism, such as you seem to think. Rather, it appears to lead more often to hedonism. As this is the only life you get, it's important to enjoy it. This would result in the exact opposite of what you expect to observe.
Do you have a peer-reviewed study that indicates that atheism leads to fatalism or nihilism? Or do you have a biased opinion written up as a statement of fact? Or are you going on gut instinct, here?
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
How unfortunate that I didn't get into this earlier.
God does not exist.
And I am happier as a result. My accomplishments are my own, instead of an invisible puppet masters.
My faults are also my own, things I can change should I choose to, as opposed to being born evil with the only redemption being belief in an entity that has never shown itself in any way.
My purpose in being I make for myself, as opposed to this life being nothing more than a test to see where I go in the next one (which you'd think an omniscient being wouldn't need to test).
Life has meaning, and it doesn't require me believing in fiction to accomplish it.
Editted a word misplaced by checker.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Great, a lesson in logical fallacies from someone who writes such drivel. Making shit up and attaching the label "scientific purpose" to it with no justification, while at the same time withholding that very label from from other piles of made up shit doesn't inspire confidence in your ability to recognize logical fallacies in others. Stop whining and present the evidence for your case.
Welcome all. I have come to help show you the light out of a world of depraven and unrepentent sin, sodomy and silliness. I alone know the true interpretation of the Bible. I alone know what God thinks about every topical issue and I alone desere lots and lots and lots of money given to me, in his name.
Richard Rogers, composer of the music for many famous Broadway musicals such as Oklahoma, South Pacific, and The Sound of Music, was a non-believer.
As was Yip Harburg, composer of the song "Somewhere over The Rainbow".
And Bob Geldof who organized those big concerts to raise money for poor contries.
And Douglas Adams, writer of 'A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".
Just wondering how you see people like that fitting your imaginary stereotype of the 'Atheist'...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
You cutting Ray out, Kirk?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I think he's asserting that atheism logically leads to fatalism and nihilism. He hasn't presented any arguments though...
Lol, I don't subscribe to either of those.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I've never been more happy and relaxed then I am in my atheism. I guess that lets me out too as I've never heard of a fatalist/nihilist who likes himself and how he's spending his time (apologies in advacne if I've painted too broadly).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Oh, relax. You can be as deluded as you like. I wasn't making a logical argument.
You assume that I'm a fatalist. I told you I'm not, so am I avoiding it still? If your opinion is that my beliefs are fatalistic, I would disagree.
Now you're just raving. Slow down and tell me what you're talking about. You want to stop suicide, depression, and ... ineffectiveness? What kind of ineffectiveness?
Also, what "wrong thinking"? And "trail of destruction". Really, now. That's too dramatic even for me.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Sentientmachine no longer believes in a god.
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