Hi everybody. First of all, I would like to introduce myself as a new member on here. I am a theist, a Muslim to be specific and I look forward to having fruitful discussions here.

So I was browsing the forums and came upon the topic that desertwolf9 started regarding the logic behind god's existence.

Link: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/16094

However, since the rules were that no theists besides him were allowed in that topic, I felt I needed to start a new topic to respond to something that Nigel said which I found odd.

Link: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/16094#comment-210603

Here's the specific quote:

I couldn't resist starting a discussion after reading this, didn't expect to hear something like that from you Nigel, cause that statement of the universe being coherent, consistent and fits together like a puzzle is the argument always used by the creationists ( those who believe god created everything ) against the evolutionists ( those who believe everything just spontaneously evolved or existed ).

Does the term "Instrumentality of the Universe" rings a bell, well, you just said it yourself, isn't it logical after finding for sure and agreeing that the universe is coherent, consistent and fits together as a puzzle that it is a deliberate engineered creation, regardless of the mechanisms and methods used to achieve that creation ( which are the field of science ... i.e the physics laws that we discover and which govern the objects in the universe -but are non-sentient by default- are merely tools created to craft the universe and keep it under control ... kinda like how you would use windows to operate your computer and without one your computer is as useless as if it doesn't exist ), How can a law or rule create itself, are rules or laws self-conscious or has any sort of will or ability to conduct organized coherent and puzzle like creation, NO .. they certainly are not, but a creator is, a creator is self-conscious, thus is more capable of creating something that is coherent, consistent and fits together as a puzzle.

Let's elaborate more on this:
Say you woke up in an unknown room, an unknown place with everything ( TV, Computer, Dining Table, .. etc etc ) arranged and shiny around you, the first thing you will assume is that someone/something brought you there, someone/something arranged the room and polished everything in it for your luxury.

Next thing you will think about is what are you supposed to do in that room, and for what purpose were you brought in there.

Sounds familiar ... maybe, but let's focus on the first reaction, that someone/something must have arranged the room .. why didn't you suppose the room arranged itself, why didn't you suppose the room polished itself, more importantly why didn't you suppose that you spontaneously appeared in the room ( even a person with memory loss won't suppose that ), why could you affirm that someone or something ( unknown to you ) did that even though you didn't see, hear, listen to that person or thing whatever it is.

Of course you can carry on with your life and enjoy it (especially if there is a PS3 there) but with no doubt there will always be a big question bugging you, why am i here and who brought me to this place and set it up to be adequate for my living !!?

Take few minutes to think about this situations and you might understand something.

Oh .... and the whole premise of "who created the creator" is totally illogical, how can you compare a creator to its creation or suppose there is any direct equality between the two, there is no logic in that, the comparison is false from the very beginning it is not even worth delving into its details ... for example .. does it make any sense to compare a "Human" ( in this case a craftsman or creator ) to a "Shoe" ( a creation or product ) ... hell NO.

Even with that said ... God ( as a creator ) who is beyond any comparison to any of his creations ( exactly like the logical relation between any creator and his creations ) differs also from all other creators in that he is ( as he stated ) the Ultimate Creator, one that doesn't need any help nor raw materials to make his creations, one that existed and shall exist without any change or alteration to his qualities and fineness ( unlike all other creators and craftsmen ).

God never had, needed, required a creator cause he always existed and will always do, there is no point or logic comparing him using the logic of creation .. cause the very concept of creation itself wouldn't have existed without God initiating it and creating something ... gasp .. did you get it.

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Belief is logical but not necessarily rational (many things and actions can be logical but not rational).

Anyways, the whole point I am making is to show that the logic behind faith in general more understandable to non-believers ( at least those willing to listen to what the other side has to say and have an open mind ).