RRS: Best Site on the Web
Your site is the best on the web for showing us how to be better people. But I hope you look at two suggestions I give at the end.
One thing that makes your site great is that it starts off with an absolute statement that certain ideas should be eradicated (peacefully) from the earth. Then a person can go to the forums and read RRS posts saying we shouldn´t make such absolute judgments. Even better, lots of your members act about as peaceful as rabid weasels in their posts and videos, and never get called on it by the rest of you. Good example of what people can expect if they give you any political power, then get on your bad side.
Another example of why this is such a great site: your responses to the topic http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15905. It started off with a post that included a quote from the guest book of http://kent-hovind.com:
Kent Hovind thinks it's a good thing to massacre Muslim insurgents, then bury them in mass graves filled with pig guts.
(http://kent-hovind.com/quotes/ethics.htm) On the other hand, Materialists of my acquaintance maintain that we must not do this.
However, Materialists cannot avoid conceding that in a matter/energy-only (M/E-only) Universe, Hovind's opinion and their own must have exactly the same origin: in the workings of ultimately purposeless physical laws within ensembles of M/E. Here, those laws have produced ethical judgments that are diametrically opposed. And in a M/E-only Universe, it's futile to ask which is "right". That answer would have to come from some other ensemble of matter/energy, for whose ethical judgments the Materialists could claim no validity that Hovind could not claim for his own, and with equal justification.
Hambydammit's response to this is the best. (http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15905#comment-207775). You should check it out. He calls those other ensembles "peers", and thinks that gives them some validity that Hovind's own opinion doesn't have.
That leads up to the biggest reason why this is such a great website. You sure are a self-important bunch of folks. You believe that your opinions and the eradication of others are important to the future of the whole human race. But according to the materialism/naturalism you spout here, you and your opinions, and the whole human race altogether, are nothing but a bunch of subatomic particles following purposeless natural laws blindly.
It's great to be able to send people here so they can see the same RRS bigwigs making those same statements in constant alternation.
So, your site is the best on the web for showing us what kind of people we don't want to be, no matter what our philosophies are. But you could make it even better by adding the following things to your home page.
1. "If there were a god, he wouldn't allow evil in the world."
2. "There are no absolutes like "evil".
3. "We maintain that we're right because we are. Prove us wrong."
(from kellym78, see post http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/kill_em_with_kindness/10614#comment-116027)
See y'all in Trollville!
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The worst any human, if there was a utopia, should do to another is a tounge lashing and a pellow fight, beyond that we all need to eat and want shelter and love. I wont hold back my words, but I am not immune to the same empathy and compassion my detractors should have.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Aw, hell. I'm not going to send you to trollville for this! It's a little hard to dig into your post because it rambles a bit and doesn't seem to have an ultimate point, but I'll do my best.
Well, you see, spirale2, RRS is not a church or a political organization. We don't require our members to have the same beliefs as us. We do have a code of conduct because, well, we've seen how internet boards can degenerate into stupidity without rules and moderators. We've banned people before, but not a lot, honestly. Out of the tens of thousands of people who've visited, and thousands who've posted, we've only banned a couple handfuls. For the most part, we like everybody to get their say. If they do it while sticking to our forum rules, they can stay.
Though, while we're on the subject of "never getting called on it" you're just plain wrong there. We've called quite a few of our members out for bad behavior, but you don't know about it because we try to avoid drama. Most of the time, when someone is getting out of hand, we deal with it in private, so you might not even be aware that it's happening unless you're paying very close attention and notice that someone's behavior changes.
I'm flattered. I had no idea I invented the concept of "peers" but considering how much it's done for social science, I'm happy to finally get the recognition I deserve.
Now if only you'd understood my post... that would have been better. Anyway, if you want to know something about how various ensembles of organized atoms can construct models of social behavior from the ground up without any supernatural reference, you should read some more of my articles:
What Does Sugar Have To Do With Murder?!
Free Will: Why we don't have it, and why that's a good thing.
For New Atheists: Is This Really All There Is?
I admit it. I'm very important to myself. If I didn't have me, I wouldn't have anybody.
Careful there. You know how people like to quote mine. I believe that my opinions represent an objective truth about human beings. I believe that opinions representing falsehoods are dangerous. I believe that for the most part, education and critical thought will eradicate falsehoods better than anything else. I certainly don't advocate eradication of ideas or people through any kind of force. That's the beauty of education. It lets people free themselves from falsehoods.
Well, you've got this pretty much totally wrong. While a materialist certainly believes that humans are made up of tiny particles, it doesn't follow that humans are "nothing but" a bunch of particles. We're obviously much more than that. The human mind is an emergent property of the organization of subatomic particles. Humans cannot directly perceive subatomic particles, so it's essentially useless to try to form some kind of philosophy around that level of existence. We can only function as discreet biological organisms, so that's how we function. Duh.
More astute readers recognize that two seemingly contradictory statements can both be true. Here's an easy example for you:
1) That hammer is a terrible tool for that job.
2) That hammer is a great tool for that job.
Contradictory statements, but they can both be true. All it takes is for "that job" to refer to two different things. In statement 1, "that job" refers to flipping a pancake. In statement 2, "that job" refers to hammering a nail. So you see, words can be very confusing if we don't take the time to be certain of their meaning.
Back to subatomic particles, the following statements are both true:
1) Humans are composed entirely of subatomic particles.
2) Humans are discreet biological organism.
See? Both are true. Statement 1 is only useful to physicists, since we have no real way to interact with subatomic particles, or even to be aware of them. Statement 2 is much more useful to psychologists, philosophers, and doctors. The thing is, that doesn't mean statement 2 is more true than statement 1. It's just that statement 2 is more useful in most contexts.
Thanks very much! Trust me, I'm happy not to be like you, too.
(1) is just not true. I don't think any of us believe that... at least I know none of the core members do. If there was a god, I have no idea what it would be like. It might be an evil son of a bitch.
(2) is partially true. Evil and Good are descriptions of the relative value of particular events, and there is no way to find an absolute measure by which to lump a certain class of act. However, the absence of absolutes doesn't mean there cannot be objective morality. I bet you didn't know that. Morality can be judged objectively when we have agreed upon parameters. If we both agree that boiling newborn babies in peanut oil is wrong, and you boil a baby in peanut oil, I can objectively say that what you have done is wrong. It's not absolute, but it is objective.
(3) Speaking of quote mining... geez. Context, kiddo. Context. We maintain we are right because we have mountains of evidence on our side.
Thanks for taking the time to brighten our day.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Hambi if you are going to blast a theist for "rambling" then tie me to the same stake and burn me with Joan of Ark along with them. Beleive me, even my blathering gets on atheist's nerves, at least some here.
I won't defend magic, but I will defend blathering because every human has "that time of the month" regardless of plumbing.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hell, that wasn't a blast. That was a polite observation. You've seen me blast before... much bigger boom.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
It's not an absolute statement. That's your own assumption.
Very few, if any, here believe in 'absolute' judgment. We leave that to the theists.
Please point to specific examples rather than making general statements. Where are these videos and posts advocating violence? You've gone from making mistaken assumptions to explicitly lying.
Again, where exactly is this 'good example'? Please show us.
Look who's talking. Sheesh.
Well it's no surprise you find it a weak argument, because it's a Straw Man of your own making. We are not naive materialists as you make us out to be. But since you don't understand modern materialism, I bet that just flies over your head.
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
I'd argue that this still doesn't create an objective moral system. If you and I create a social contract that says boiling babies would be wrong, the contract itself is going to be based on some subjective arbitration (though, of course, I don't disagree that within the confines of the contract itself there will be objective standards to abide by).
I just don't get why theists demand an objective morality. It's stupid. It's like demanding that the material world be devoid of pain and suffering, and upon seeing that it isn't, calling materialism 'evil'.
EDIT: ...Or, a better example (now that I've thought of it) would be demanding us to present a 'most tasty food'. And then, when we can't provide one (instead, perhaps, attempting in futility to educate you of the mechanism behind tastiness and how to achieve certain flavors in cooking), crossing your arms and claiming that atheists don't/can't enjoy eating food.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
You answered your own objection. If we agree on subjective terms for an objective system, the system is still objective. It's a matter of hierarchy.
I remember being a Christian and thinking that absolute morality was somehow necessary, but for my life, I can't remember any good reason for it. I'm pretty sure I just took it as true because everybody says it. I've never heard anybody offer a coherent argument for why an absolute moral standard is either necessary, or for that matter, workable in any meaningful way.
On first glance, I like the food analogy, although I think it's more culturally variable than morality itself. That is, I can think raw oysters are the best thing ever, and you might think they are the worst thing ever. You rarely get complete dichotomies in morality. People tend to agree on relative goodness. As an example, we might disagree on the death penalty, but we are unlikely to disagree that killing innocent children is good. We agree that killing is mostly bad, as do most people.
Even in very oppressive societies, like fundamentalist muslim countries, there is still a general agreement on most things. You don't steal. You don't lie to a judge. You don't kill innocent people. The disagreement comes when we talk about what counts as innocent, or how something ought to be punished.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
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