Why Gould's "non-overlapping magisteria" is wrong.

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Why Gould's "non-overlapping magisteria" is wrong.

We've all heard of NOMA, Stephen Jay Gould idea that religion and science are not really incompatible, because according to him, science is about 'what' and 'how' regarding the natural world, while religion is about values, morals and purpose.

This is problematic on multiple levels. I'll outline four of them, before explaining why I think how we approach and treat religion is of great importance.

 1) While this may be a nice idea in theory, it is completely devoid of any relevance to how theists actually behave and employ their faith in real life. Religion, of all stripes, inherently trespass into the purview of science, even if it is not the explicit intent of the believer, the belief or claim itself.

 Claims about reality-- that is, claims regarding fact, objective truth, and history--necessarily rest on an understanding of reality and the specific object of the individual claim. Claims about reality are therefore inherently knowledge claims, and as such, demand evidence. Anyone making such claims imply--by virtue of making the claim--that they have good reason, some justified foundation, for the claim. If they do not have this evidence, then they are either just speculating without justification, or they are merely expressing a desire, and either way have no business making the claim about reality.

Religion is inherently about the nature of reality, and is built on claims and beliefs regarding fact, truth, and history, and as such, everything I outlined above applies to religion. Religious beliefs and claims, being about reality as they are, necessarily imply evidence, lest the beliefs and claims are without justification. Science and religion therefore inherently overlap here; they both make claims about reality, which is supposed to be the purview of scientific inquiry, and because of this, science is justified in responding to the claims and demanding the necessary evidence.

 2) What is perhaps the biggest flaw of NOMA is its central claim that morality and purpose are to be dealt with by religion, not science. One can initially claim that even if it is the case that morality and purpose are not within the purview of science, that does not mean that religion has any special authority on such issues, indeed, while religion can only speculate and/or declare by fiat, as to what is moral and what our purpose is, if morality and purpose have objectively true answers, surely it would be scientific inquiry that would deliver these answers, not religious declaration? If, however, such questions do not have objectively true answers; if morality is purely subjective, and we have no ultimate metaphysical purpose, then religion is of not more an authority than any other domain of inquiry. Either way, assigning morality and purpose to religion is erroneous and only provides religion with a credibility and authority which it does not deserve.

 In any case, that being said, I would agree with Gould that questions of morality do in fact belong in a specific domain of inquiry, but it isn't religion. A very good case can be made for why a scientific morality (a morality derived from scientific values and methods) is not only superior to a non-scientific morality, but is in fact the only legitimate, justified, moral system. This is a position argued by the historian and philosopher Richard Carrier in his book "Sense and Goodness without God." Roughly, it goes as follows:

 There is necessarily one thing that people want more than anything else, so, first you empirically determine what it is that people want more than anything else. Then you empirically determine which behaviours and lifestyles are more likely to statistically achieve that desire. For example, if people desire happiness more than anything else (as most would agree this is the case), then we can empirically determine which behaviours and lifestyles are statistically more likely result in happiness. These behaviour and lifestyles would by definition be moral in so far that they are the means of achieving what people desire most.

 Obviously I cannot do his position justice in a few lines, so here are two talks he gives on the topic:

 On natural morality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dce8mE0q4zA

(Part 1 of 6)

 Why science is better than religion as always has been:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNMUz1iediU

(Part 1 of 14, although Carrier only speak in parts 1-6, after which it's PZ Myers)

 3) The philosopher Daniel Dennett as rightly noted that even if it is true that science and religion occupy different domains, where science does what it does, and religions does what it does, and neither overlap, it does not however exclude science from studying what religion does, and there would be no reason for why it shouldn't. It would not mean that science was actually doing what religion does. So even if we ignore the above two points and agree with Gould's distinction between science and religion, because science gets things right so often, why not use it to study religion as a natural phenomena, and to assess the objective claims it makes?

 4) If we strictly adhere to Gould's boundaries, we find that most of religion is in fact self-excluded (!) from Gould's domain of religion, indeed religion is inherently built on factual empirical claims, and yet according to Gould, matters of fact belong in the domain of scientific inquiry. I will give various examples:

 The virgin birth is inherently a scientific claim; it is a claim about biology and physics. This equally applies to the resurrection of Jesus, a central tenet of the Christian religion. Both of these are claims about matters of fact; they are historical claims about what factually happened, and as such belong in Gould's "magisterium" of science. The ideal of an afterlife also trespasses into science in that it contains the scientific claim that the self, our individual identity, is more than the brain and can therefore survive the decomposition of our brain. Other claims such as miracles, the nature of certain books, the historicity of apparent religious events, and even the supposed existence and activity of a creator within the natural world are all necessarily claims to fact; they are all claims which carry scientific import. Even if it is the case that we cannot or currently cannot scientifically test these religious claims, it is still the case that they are claims about matters of fact (which, by definition, have an answer); they are objective claims about the universe, and as such, they fall under the purview of scientific inquiry.

 5) Finally, on the wider issue on religion in society, which I think relates this topic. It must be said that the root of the problem (the problem being the prevalence of irrationality in society) of is of course not religion, but rather faith-based thinking (e.g. any belief not based on evidence) and dogma, which can present itself in various forms, including conspiracy theories, alternative medicine, denialism, cults, secular political ideology, and of course religion. As skeptics and critical thinkers surely we want to foster critical thinking, reason and scientific skepticism to the degree that it severely and negatively impacts dogmatic and faith-based thinking, however we will never achieve this if we maintain the current social double standard of holding religion as somehow distinct from all the other forms of nonsense, pseudoscience, and non-critical thinking that we do criticise. It is inconsistent to endeavour a society which respects critical thought, while still allowing, or even respecting, the most persistent form of non-critical thought to persist. This doesn't mean that we are to be critical without restraint, and/or critical at inappropriate times, we must of course show composure, however we must at least acknowledge that overall religion is detrimental to the goal of a society which appreciates scientific thought. To pretend that there is no conflict between the core values and methods of science and religion, when there clearly is, and to pretend that religion does not inherently trespass into the domain of science, when it clearly does, I feel, gives religion a standing which it does not deserve, which in turn makes it harder to criticise when it needs to be, and therefore makes it more prevalent, and above all else undermines the goal of fostering critical thinking.

 I also recognize that the a stronger critical approach may make the theist more defensive and therefore less open to discussion and reviewing their beliefs. This is clearly true, but I don't think this necessarily makes that approach the wrong way to go, since the goal should never be for the person to immediately renounce their beliefs, or even to necessarily to get them to renounce them at all, rather, it is to plant a seed, an idea, which they will someday examine on their own, and I don't think their initial defensive stance will affect that, indeed surely it is natural to initially be defensive when someone is in some way critical of our views, however later we can examine the issue with a clear head.

 Many have said that instead of emphasising why religion is wrong, we should instead emphasise why science is right, why it works, and why skepticism it the best approach, something which I can agree with, especially with regards to those who are 'on the fence'. Unfortunately however many religious people are already of the opinion that their beliefs are correct, and that science is incorrect/or that it supports their belief, so simply discussing why science is so good may not always be effective. Instead, I would contend that we should discuss both why science is right/accurate, and why religion is wrong/inaccurate. By first demonstrating a flaw or inaccuracy in their belief, then demonstrating the benefits of science, may in fact have a greater affect than had we just focused on the science.

 The harder vs. softer approach to religion is not mutually exclusive, however it is often portrayed as being so. How we criticise and deal with religion should depend on the individual person and on the context, but we should deal with it, in some way, in all cases.

 

 

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" -- Carl Sagan


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Indeed, the science should

Indeed, the science should extend itself on the domains of human activity where it wasn't yet seen. Morality is the example. If our society would be scientifically analyzed, we would see that it is extremely immoral, that it's designed to diminish happiness, the ultimate goal, and thus it dirrectly opposes the morality. If this is scientifically designed, then perhaps by a mad scientist.

We must also clarify our terms and goals - what is the happiness? Can it be measured numerically, or per cent? Can it be achieved by material wealth? We must measure the values of human needs, for example, a curve of hunger, which increases over time by a certain speed and then quickly decreases when satiated. There are many needs, many curves, and where they all cross each other, (or near) there is the point of happiness of a complex system called human, which must be dynamically upheld in equilibrium! (I admit, not my thoughts)
As for our goal, the happiness, we have two things sure - the graph of happiness versus money is not linear, not even steeply increasing. The greatest happiness is with a certain not very high amount of money, but being extremely rich doesn't provide an extreme happiness. The second observation is based on it. The greatest amount of happiness is achieved by a bit of happiness for many people, rather than extreme happiness for a few of people.

Our global society has billions of very poor people and thousands of extremely rich, ergo, our society is not scientific and not moral. Such a society has a low political and social stability and very many of resources must be wasted to keep this status quo. The waste of resources makes this instability even greater, and thus the society is self-destructive.

Now there is absolutely no reason, that organized religion is a way to happiness. Rather oppositely, it's the same model what got us into trouble, a few powerful dignitaries on the top, and millions of uncritical believers. If there is anything valuable on religions, these are the universal moral tenets, but not an organized hierarchy of dignitaries, forming an institution which does nothing for the people. The purpose of religions is to teach and heal, but over the millenia, they taught lies and healed very little. They ruled instead. We don't need a powerful people to rule us. We need them to serve us. They are given the power, but it's not theirs - they only serve as a concentration point of that power, so it can be used to achieve a certain goals.
But this is necessary, only if the people are uneducated and have no will of their own. Otherwise, they can choose if they grant their bit of power or not. Today, we're intelligent, educated and mutually interconnected humanity, we don't need to follow blindly such a concentration point! Millions doesn't have to rely upon one brain, which can help them, or exhaust and kill them in a senseless war. (hey Mr. Bush?) We have billions of brains, billions of potential failsafes against immorality. This is the voice of people, this is where the real power is coming from. All control there ever was, could exist only because it used the power of people against them. To be critically thinking doesn't mean just to be critical towards religion, it means to question everything. Do we really have to spend all our days at work? Is there really no better source of energy than uranium and fossil fuels? Does God really tell us that we must obey a gang of pedophiles?

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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 Quote: 1) While this may

 

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 1) While this may be a nice idea in theory, it is completely devoid of any relevance to how theists actually behave and employ their faith in real life. Religion, of all stripes, inherently trespass into the purview of science, even if it is not the explicit intent of the believer, the belief or claim itself.

What Gould, et al, missed is the fact that "non-scientific inquiry" or "non-scientific acquisition of knowledge" is a nonsense term.  Science is nothing more and nothing less than the description of how knowledge of the empirical universe is acquired.  When someone uses an unreliable method of knowledge acquisition, they're not going "outside of science."  They're using BAD science.

I know this is not the standard way of looking at it, and we can use another word if it makes the scientists in the group feel better, but science is analogous to logic in this way.  Logic is the description of how we reach conclusions.  If we reach conclusions through bad logic, we are still using logic -- just poorly.  In the same way, anytime we inquire into the nature of the empirical universe, we are using science.  Some people, unfortunately, use very, very poor science.

Science and logic are intrinsically tied together, of course.  Science is the practical application of logic to the interpretation of sensory data.

 

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2) What is perhaps the biggest flaw of NOMA is its central claim that morality and purpose are to be dealt with by religion, not science.

E.O. Wilson made a good attempt at dealing with this in his book, Consilience.  In it, he argues that any attempt to explain morality and purpose without examining the scientific reality of human existence is doomed to the same failure as all other pre-scientific pursuits.  (Here, I am using prescientific to mean before we discovered the most effective way to gain knowledge of the empirical universe.  Before that time, we could say that we only used bad science, or when we used good science, we were unaware of what we were doing.)

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 3) The philosopher Daniel Dennett as rightly noted that even if it is true that science and religion occupy different domains, where science does what it does, and religions does what it does, and neither overlap, it does not however exclude science from studying whatreligion does, and there would be no reason for why it shouldn't.

Put another way, if religion is the proper domain of morality and purpose, we ought to be able to scientifically measure its results.  If we cannot do so, then we have a paradox.  Religion claims dominion over morality, but leaves itself no way to evaluate its claim for legitimacy!

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4) If we strictly adhere to Gould's boundaries, we find that most of religion is in fact self-excluded (!) from Gould's domain of religion, indeed religion is inherently built on factualempirical claims, and yet according to Gould, matters of fact belong in the domain of scientific inquiry.

In all cases, religion wants to have its cake and eat it, too.  When its claims deviate from science, it cries foul when anyone makes mention of it.  When its claims rely on science, it buddies up to the scientist, asking if we can't just all be friends.

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 5) Finally, on the wider issue on religion in society, which I think relates this topic. It must be said that the root of the problem (the problem being the prevalence of irrationality in society) of is of course not religion, but rather faith-based thinking (e.g. any belief not based on evidence) and dogma, which can present itself in various forms, including conspiracy theories, alternative medicine, denialism, cults, secular political ideology, and of course religion.

Daniel Dennett also talks about playing tennis without a net, and I think it applies very well here.  The problem is that once we lower the net for anybody at all, everybody gets to claim that the net should be lowered for them.

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Unfortunately however many religious people are already of the opinion that their beliefs are correct, and that science is incorrect/or that it supports their belief, so simply discussing why science is so good may not always be effective.

I agree.  There is a misconception built on this NOMA nonsense that most intellectual theists hold to.  They (ironically) hold a relativistic view of knowledge.  Those same people who claim that the world will fall apart if we don't have objective morality commit a much greater sin by claiming that knowledge is relative!  (Granted, most of them don't realize that's what they're claiming, but ignorance has never been an epistemological free pass.)

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I pretty much agree, both

I pretty much agree, both with Topher and Hamby.

I read several of Gould's books, and when writing on evolution and biology in general, he was great.

But when he wrote on broader topics, his tendency to defer to Religion in some areas was annoying to me.

The only source of information which can be counted as 'knowledge" is the scientific approach. Otherwise we just have Philosophy and Metaphysics, which amounts to little more than exchanges of opinion, unless informed by current relevant scientific insights. People just don't realize how much we are learning from scientifically rigorous studies about how our minds work, and subtleties of human behaviour, which frequently show how misleading are many of our 'intuitive' understandings of these topics, which is essentially all you have in 'pure' Philosophy, Metaphysics, and (puke) Theology.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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These are all excellent

These are all excellent points. Gould’s NOMA fails for a very simple reason. It states that there are two distinct domains over which religion and science preside, with science dealing with empirical facts and the world and religion with “metaphysical” phenomenon. The problem is sort of obvious. While it is a necessary and axiomatic consequence of our experience that the empirical world which is the “domain of science” exists, there is absolutely no reason to suppose that there is a “metaphysical realm” at all. Then again, they might sidestep that by trying to say that it is the job of religion to investigate “metaphysical questions” such as “why are we here”? This is equally preposterous. There is simply no reason to suppose that religion has any domain at all, insofar as it has never produced a methodology which has ever delivered us useful answers about anything. Additionally, they might set up a false dichotomy by staking claim over those phenomenon which science has not explained, or questions which they argue cannot be answered by empirical means (such as why the universe exists). Once again, there is no reason to suppose that religion can or ever will deliver us answers to these questions. The fact that science cannot explain everything does not mean that religion can explain anything. Finally, there are those who turn to a vague, woo-woo sort of proposition (rather the opposite of NOMA) such as “science and spirituality are compatible and science should be spiritual”. The answer to this is a resounding NO. Science is science. It has to be compatible with one thing only. Raw data. That’s it. It does not serve to be mangled by those who desperately wish to give their nonsense a stamp of approval. And if it is incompatible with your religious beliefs, that is your problem. It does not have to be compatible with any religious doctrine, spiritual belief, teaching or concept.

Lastly, there are people who might say something like "It is the job of science to investigate the material world", implicitly stating that there is some "non-material" world which can be accessed by the methodologies of another discipline. It seems that “metaphysics” is a label applied to something until scientific investigation demonstrates a meaningful model behind it. I stress that since it is the job of science to investigate phenomenon then it appears, from an epistemological standpoint, to be problematic to say that we can conclude in a phenomenon that cannot be investigated by science (in other words, that a phenomenon is "non-material". Why is this so? Consider it. When it is through some complicated causal chain, which via deduction, we can link some model or external object to some feature of our perceptual experience, then we are performing a scientific investigation. Solely by means of using our intuitive understanding based on our immediate perceptual experience, we wouldn’t get very far, but, by means of accumulating knowledge, we can effectively link causal chains of experienced phenomenon to an external world behind the experiences. Thus, for example, we would be unable to conclude in “dark matter” on the basis of our analysis of galactic motions through telescopes if we didn’t already have an understanding of what galactic motion should look like based on Relativity, which in turn, we wouldn’t have been able to conclude in if we didn’t have a set of equations describing our intuitive basis for relative motion, called “Newtonian mechanics”, which in turn we wouldn’t be able to conclude in unless we had…

You get the idea. So, in effect, by asserting that some phenomenon is beyond the realm of science (or, equivalently, isn't material), we are, in effect, asserting that such a feature has no causal relationship, however complicated it may be, that is needed to explain our perceptual experience. Obviously, there is some confusion about this. We don’t perceive, for example, “electron density”, but through a complex causal chain employing deductive experiments and prior knowledge also based on experiments, we can link electron density to some feature of perceptual experience. If there was no way whatsoever to link some phenomenon to some feature of our perceptual experience, however complex the linking chain might be, then, in effect, we are making assertions about phenomenon that, through no amount of deduction or investigation, can we make conclusions about based upon our perceptual experiences, which are the source of all our knowledge. So, you are on impossible ground, epistemologically speaking. To make your assertion, you must relinquish any knowledge claims you might make about this phenomenon at all.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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You tend to notice a general

You tend to notice a general trend where you find those who dislike the tougher, more critical treatment of religion will often will shy away from the atheist label and tend to accept the notion of NOMA.

It would be interested to know why people think religion and science do not clash. Are they just bending over backwards; do they really secretly see that they clash but just don't want to shut themselves off to the theists they want to reach out to (you see this one with a lot of scientists or institutions), or are they just ignorant of the claims and theology/philosophy, or maybe they genuinely hold some respect for religion, or maybe they really see them as distinct domains of inquiry, although, I honestly don't see how anyway living in the world can arrive at that conclusion.

Here's an analogy given by someone who supports NOMA on how to treat religion:

"A cloud and the sun had a bet one day over which one could more quickly get a coat off of a man who was walking by. The cloud went first, it blew its wind stonger and stronger trying to blow off the coat, but the harder it blew, the stronger the man clutched his coat around him. The sun went next. It shined down upon the man, warming him until he became hot and took off the coat."

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" -- Carl Sagan


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 Quote:It would be

 

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It would be interested to know why people think religion and science do not clash. Are they just bending over backwards; do they really secretly see that they clash but just don't want to shut themselves off to the theists they want to reach out to (you see this one with a lot of scientists or institutions), or are they just ignorant of the claims and theology/philosophy, or maybe they genuinely hold some respect for religion, or maybe they really see them as distinct domains of inquiry, although, I honestly don't see how anyway living in the world can arrive at that conclusion.

I suspect it's some of all of the above.  Some people feel an emotional need not to offend 85 percent of the population.  I can't say I entirely blame them for that.  It doesn't mean it's correct or good, but I do understand it.  I think many people are genuinely ignorant of the claims of both science and religion.  They recognize their own inability to make a definitive argument either way.

Some people, I believe, believe in belief.  (HA!  I love making sentences like that.)  They don't necessarily think religion and science are compatible, but they believe humanity will be better off if people believe it.  Consider how many movies and books have been about how bad things get when science runs away with technology.  Terminator, anyone?

Quote:
"A cloud and the sun had a bet one day over which one could more quickly get a coat off of a man who was walking by. The cloud went first, it blew its wind stonger and stronger trying to blow off the coat, but the harder it blew, the stronger the man clutched his coat around him. The sun went next. It shined down upon the man, warming him until he became hot and took off the coat."

Sounds like a sermon I heard once. 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Aw. I like Stephen J.

Aw. I like Stephen J. Gould's books. Sad

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Consider how many movies and books have been about how bad things get when science runs away with technology.  Terminator, anyone?

Well, to be fair, books that don't include big clanking machines and stuff that goes boom are fucking dull. People rave about 'masterpieces' like Who Has Seen the Wind. Guess what? That book was boring and shitty.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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 Quote:Well, to be fair,

 

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Well, to be fair, books that don't include big clanking machines and stuff that goes boom are fucking dull. People rave about 'masterpieces' like Who Has Seen the Wind. Guess what? That book was boring and shitty.

LOL.  You make a good point, but my point still stands -- science is often portrayed as the philosophical enemy of humanity.  To quote Sting:  "I never saw no miracle of science that didn't always end up as something worse."

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Topher wrote:We've all heard

Topher wrote:

We've all heard of NOMA, Stephen Jay Gould idea that religion and science are not really incompatible, because according to him, science is about 'what' and 'how' regarding the natural world, while religion is about values, morals and purpose.

This is actually the first time I've heard his name. I've heard the saying "Science is the 'how', and Religion is the 'why,'" but this is the first time I've seen it attributed to anyone. I gotta say this is one of the stupidest ideas I can remember hearing or reading. The logical fallacy in it is so obvious it shouldn't even need an argument put forth to refute it. However I must comend you guys for your post. You're spot on as usual. I just wish I could get in on a post like this before the statement it's torn to shreds.

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deludedgod wrote: You get

deludedgod wrote:
 

You get the idea. So, in effect, by asserting that some phenomenon is beyond the realm of science (or, equivalently, isn't material), we are, in effect, asserting that such a feature has no causal relationship, however complicated it may be, that is needed to explain our perceptual experience. Obviously, there is some confusion about this. We don’t perceive, for example, “electron density”, but through a complex causal chain employing deductive experiments and prior knowledge also based on experiments, we can link electron density to some feature of perceptual experience. If there was no way whatsoever to link some phenomenon to some feature of our perceptual experience, however complex the linking chain might be, then, in effect, we are making assertions about phenomenon that, through no amount of deduction or investigation, can we make conclusions about based upon our perceptual experiences, which are the source of all our knowledge. So, you are on impossible ground, epistemologically speaking. To make your assertion, you must relinquish any knowledge claims you might make about this phenomenon at all.

First it would be nice to define materiality and non-materiality. It could be like the materiality equals mass of a particle. Even if we do that, the science still researches non-material phenomena, like energy, information, and massless particles. The science simply should research everything, whether it is considered 'metaphysical' or not. There's also no reason to say, that something lacks a causality. Everything known to exist has a causality.

How can we get a definition of nonphysical things, when we can't even decide what's nonphysical? I'd say, etheric matter and/or 'prana', things to which I'm physically sensitive, but this won't tell me what parameters in term of physics it has. I can't tell  what mass, friction or inertia it has, because this substance behaves less or more according to the state of my mind, I determine most of it's physical properties by an unknown but obvious causal relationship. For example, the uncontrolled idle thoughts are manifested on it like an unstable swirling, similar to Brown's movement. In fact, it generally resembles a behavior of liquid crystals in an electric field or without it.
I'm not sensitive to non-charged etheric matter (without "prana" ). Here it gets really diffcult and it's pretty obvious to me, that I need more people like me, a team of scientists, well equipped laboratory, and a few millions of dollars. (to be modest) This is the less idealistic face of science, it's limited by money and professionalism, as everything else.

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Quote:Even if we do that,

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Even if we do that, the science still researches non-material phenomena, like energy, information, and massless particles.

Those things are still part of the physical system constituting our universe and have measurable and testable properties. What you are talking about does not. They hence fall under the domain which I was referring. Any phenonemon which can be causally linked to our experience and hence empirically investigated is by definition a physical phenomenon, which is why I regard the notion of "non-physical" as utter nonsense. These things you are talking about are untested, and you have yet to put forth any testable predictions that they might have. Modern physics is all about unification. The more phenomenon that can be described by less, the better. The first unification process that occured was thanks to Newton, Leibniz, Hooke and Kepler, who demonstrated that physical laws are uniform throughout the universe (mechanics which were later formalized by Lagrange and Hamilton). The next great unification occured by the work of Oersted, Ampere and Faraday, who realized that electricity generated magnetism and vice-versa. The next great unification occured due to the work of Maxwell, who showed that electromagnetism was responsible for light (you can see the equations below. They are in my signature). The last great unification occured by the work of Glashow, Salam and Weinberg, who showed that the weak nuclear force and electromagnetic force are unified. At present, there are hence exactly three things in the universe. Electroweak forces, strong nuclear forces and gravity. That's it. Hopefully within a few years the three will drop to one. And then the work of elementary physics shall be done. Our fundamental picture of the nature of reality will be complete.

EDIT: Slight inaccuracy. Although Faraday showed that the curl of an electric field in a point in space is equal to the time derivative of magnetic flux density through that point, it was Maxwell who predicted that the time derivative of an electric field would correspond to the curl of a magnetic field in free space. You can see this below. It's the displacement term in Ampere's Law. With that realization, Maxwell derived the wave solutions to the partial differentials expressed below.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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HisWillness
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Hambydammit wrote:To quote

Hambydammit wrote:

To quote Sting:  "I never saw no miracle of science that didn't always end up as something worse."

There, Sting taps into a couple of things: massive common ignorance and the tendency of musicians to pander to massive common ignorance. (Sting, after all, believes that yoga is something more than regular stretching.) We can quickly diagnose a patient without invasive surgery, but ... research in radiation led to the atom bomb. Metallurgy has produced some new and amazing materials, but ... they'll probably be used on tanks. Modern transportation allows us all sorts of amazing freedoms that no other generations could have imagined, but ... our transport ships carry disease, and we've destroyed the oceans, and we've polluted the world.

I guess what I'm saying is that Sting is a Debbie Downer, and that kind of thinking is infectious.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


KSMB
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Hambydammit wrote:They

Hambydammit wrote:
They recognize their own inability to make a definitive argument either way.

To recognize that they would have to think about it, something people on average aren't well known for doing...