NY Times Article: Religion and Self-Control
I didn't see this mentioned anywhere, but I thought it would be of interest.
In today's NY Times, there was an article entitled "For Good Self-Control, Try Getting Religious About It."
The article describes studies which suggest that people who are religious tend to have greater self-control and are less impulsive. In addition, "[r]esearchers around the world have repeatedly found that devoutly religious people tend to do better in school, live longer, have more satisfying marriages and be generally happier." The article points out that it's not clear if being religious gives people more control, or if people with control are better able to be "faithful" in practicing, but I thought it was a very interesting article.
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I find it interesting that no one ever seems to notice that these studies usually equate following externally-imposed rules with self-control.
If one looks at it more realistically, it should come as no surprise at all that folks who better conform to such rules would also tend be religious.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
I appreciate the fact that he mentions the extrinsically religious. About halfway through the piece, I was wondering whether they addressed that or not.
As I read the article, I kept asking myself what seemed like an obvious question: "Is self restraint necessarily a good quality?" I see a lot of people who miss out on life because they're too restrained. How much better would some people's lives be if they paid a little less attention to staying restrained and just did things that would make them happy. I'm reminded of people who die with tons of money in the bank because they saved every penny they made and never went on a frivolous vacation.
Another thing that comes to mind is that the religious are far more likely to score high on the RWA scale (Right Wing Authoritarian) than the non-religious. Authoritarian Followers are much more likely to do a thing "because it's supposed to be that way" than anti-authoritarians. The very makeup of their personality suggests that they would appear more methodical and "tempered" than others. I guess I'm saying that I can think of a reasonable hypothesis to explain why the self-controlled tend to be religious, rather than the religious tending to be self-controlled.
All in all, I think the findings are probably relatively accurate, but I don't like the way it's presented. It seems to be tooting the horn of religion as having some societal benefit, and I'll bet dimes to dollars that if I read the full study, I'd find no such implications.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
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I can somewhat see it.
One of my cousins was somewhat was a purge spender. She spend it on clothes, candy etc.. an impulse shopper if you will.
Now she's rather religious, and her and her husband are going to tour Europe this summer. She never would have saved enough money for this when she was spending it on shoes/skirts.
Now she donated most of the excess clothes to charity. Volunteers more and seems much happier.
On the other hand, I have little self-control, (I constantly procastranate.) meh.
The only really clear personality trait I've ever seen linked to religiosity is authoritarianism. Like I said, I can see a possible correlation between authoritarianism and thriftiness or self control, but I'd sure like to see some very hard data before I was ready to commit to it.
The other thing I'm anxious to see is whether this team does follow up studies on non-religious disciplines that require the same kinds of devotion. Sports teams come to mind, as do political action groups, environmental activist groups, and a few others. I suspect that any kind of organization that requires rigorous devotion to a cause either inspires the same kind of mentality or draws people of that mentality in.
Put another way, I seriously doubt religion is the only place where we can witness this phenomenon.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I doubt that's what the authour was trying to portray.
If you read my original answer, you'll see that I agree with you. I doubt the author of the study was trying to say this. I felt like the author of the news article was skirting around it... saying it without sounding like he was saying it.
Could be my bias.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I think the authour was atheist.
Ya think?
The author of the news article appeared to be atheist. I know nothing of the study author.
It's possible, though after re-reading the article several times on several days, I'm pretty sure it's going out of its way to accomodate religion.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Study Authour
Article Authour
Saying it doesn't have to come from religion.
I am rather surprised you missed all this.
I only read the article once, and then skimmed through it another time and I picked up on it.
Pineapple, have you noticed that I have used the words "study" and "article" throughout this thread? Go back and reread them and you will see that I have a firm grasp on what you've just said.
{EDIT: To clarify, go back and see that I have not accused the article author of being theist. I have accused him of pandering to theists.}
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
How is it pandering exactly? It's not like he's saying this can only come from religion. If the study find high self-control among the religious, how is it pandering to report it?
He even said it didn't have to come from religion at the end of the article.
Like I said, maybe it's my bias, but I read:
Religion: self control: good
Religion: self control: good
Religion: self control: good
Religion: self control: good
(Oh yeah, and atheists can be self controlled too)
I'm going to back off of my position now because I haven't read the study. Until I do so, I can't say that the article author is misrepresenting the study. I suspect he is, but you're right. I'm out of my epistemic rights to say so without reading the study itself.
I'll get back to you once I get a hold of the study.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Video of Dr. McCullough discussing the study
Religion: Hamby's ultimate panty twister
And here's the actual study
http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccullough/Papers/Relig_self_control_bulletin.pdf
Bookmarked for reading after work. Thanks for doing my websearching for me. I'm going to read the full study, then I'm going to read that article one more time. Shame on me for making a big deal of something I wasn't prepared to talk about.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Seeing studies like this makes me think that someone is looking for an excuse to say, "Obey us! We know what's best for YOU. Religion is the only way to to control yourself, by havign us control you." Self-control in reference to what? Money, sex, travel, music, food, books, etc. A consitant idea I saw throughout school was, "Do what you are told.", so yeah I guess those who are obidient would "do better" in school. (I also question the stand they used to determine "better" ) Doesn't answer the question of: Will they use the knowlegde they learned? (How many great thinkers/inventers where dropouts from convential learning institutions?) What is the purpose of teaching these obidiently religious students science when all they will do is chuck it out the window the moment it conflicts with their faith.
Well I suppose you could also ask if druggies are happier too when they are busy avoiding reality on the high they are taking in. The happiness always ends when reality enters the picture.
{EDIT}
I am reading the study atm and found this section of interest.
Religion and the Real-Time Process of Self-Regulation
Thus far, we have proposed that religiousness is associated with
higher levels of self-control. However, some of religion.s putative
effects on behavior and well-being are not about .overriding
prepotent responses. (which defines self-control), but rather, steering
one.s behavior according to goals more generally (which
defines the broader concept of self-regulation). In Carver and
Scheier.s (1998) model of self-regulation, which was informed by
cybernetic theory (e.g., Wiener, 1948), self-control is conceptualized
as a dynamical process by which people bring their behavior
into conformity with a standard through the operation of feedback
loops consisting of several integrated functions. The first function
is an
input function that detects the system.s state. In human terms,comparator function that comparesreference value can beoutput function, is activated to reduce that
this is equivalent to one.s perceptions of the self and the environment.
The second function is a
the system.s state to a reference value. A
conceptualized as a goal, a standard, or an ideal. When the comparator
indicates that the state of a system matches the reference
value, the system changes nothing, and the existing state is maintained.
When the comparator registers a discrepancy between the
system.s actual state and its reference value, a third function,
referred to as an
discrepancy. A self-regulating system continuously self-monitors
for discrepancies and attempts to minimize those discrepancies
through its outputs.
the reason that studies such as this are utterly meaningless is that any type of program which concentrates on focus/discipline can produce these results. religion, meditation, a gym membership, martial arts, military service, even credit counseling can all produce mediocre to drastic changes in an individual's level of self-control and sense of responsiblility as well as better personal organization and life management, and achieving these things generally leads to happiness. even things as simple as aging and maturing, or finding the right person and settling into a productive long-term relationship, can do wonders for the ADD slacker in all of us.
religion is just one of thousands of ways to improve focus and discipline through self imposed guidelines and restrictions.
for me personally, age and maturity have led to a ridiculously happy marriage and a meaningful & satisfying career. and those things, in turn, have helped make me a better person all around.
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
Yeah, causality...