Is faith or no faith a convenience?
Offline I have noticed that many Christians who have strong beliefs seem to have their life completely shaped around their religion. Some of the shaping is done before birth. The question, is it not a religion of convenience? I can see many reasons why someone would remain Christian despite any evidence:
1. Their entire family is Christians and they dont want to upset anyone. If they come out and speak out against Religion, they could be ostracised by their own social network.
2. They have alterior motives, ie: love, money, power, etc, and have found an avenue in getting said resources through the Church.
To me, it seems that many people are theistic OR atheistic not because of their own personal beliefs, but because of their own personal desires. But it seems to me that people are more aligned idealogically with anything (religion, abortion, government, etc) because of convenience. Because their family is, or because they can find progress (financial, mental, desires) or meet goals by using it.
I suppose my main argument is that I've witnessed many people in chruches, especially in my day as a Christian, whom were there not for salvation, but for help with money, help with raising the kids, to please their family members, and even for attention/power.
In this respect it can be argued that the atheist who walks away and is shunned by his/her family and social network is indeed a martyr, and if it were the bronze age would be put to death.
The atheist can also be one simply because all of their friends are one, family is one, and have a strong atheistic social network that they rely upon to make ends meet. This could be said for University students trying to impress their atheistic professors. Or perhaps the old argument of the atheist who does not want to deal with constant feelings of guilt for just being a descendant of original sin.
So my question is this: Is your idealogical belief set based upon reason, or convenience?
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Belief despite understanding the logic, and three steps to freedom
I think it's certainly possible for people to be atheist by association or convenience, but I'd say in America, you pretty much have to make a concerted effort to call yourself one. After all, it's the most distrusted group in America... lower than Muslims and lawyers.
The truth is, it doesn't take anything special to be an atheist. People like me have spent years studying the logic, science, and philosophy behind it in an effort to help others become atheists, but in the end, a child can do it. You just look at the story and say, "Gee. That sounds made up."
In America, I think calling yourself an atheist is usually not a matter of convenience unless you're very lucky to live in a place where most everyone is. For the most part, anywhere in this country, atheists are distrusted, shunned, and ostracized. Personally, I love my life much more since becoming an atheist, but admitting to being an atheist has rarely brought me anything but derision and distrust. Do you see the difference I'm getting at? In my case, convenience was simply not an option. Once I realized just how incredibly wrong religion is about damn near everything, I realized there was no way I could be happy and effectively pretend, so my decision was made for me. It was just a matter of when I admitted that to myself.
I don't like being called a martyr. Martyrs are dead, and I'm still doing very nicely, though I had a wicked hangover from an early New Years party.
In the end, my beliefs are entirely based on reason, though I won't kid you and tell you I don't get emotional satisfaction from them. I have made a convenient place for myself by surrounding myself with like minded people, but the decision to move to open atheism was far from convenient.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Books about atheism
My family aren't atheists... in fact, I didn't know anyone else who'd admit to being an atheist until well after my college years. For me, it wasn't so much a matter oconvenience as it was... rightness. I stopped accepting what I was told and started asking that people give me evidence. Not just about religion, either, but about everything. I wanted (and still do) to understand things as fully as I could. Religion claims to have answers, but what it really has are answer-placebos. God is introduced as the ultimate, ineffable explanation, and that pre-empts any deeper understanding of what it is that 'God' is being used to explain.
It's supposed to be reassuring, comforting, and liberating: God is the answer, so you need not worry about all that. Free up your mind to focus on other things. But to me, it's insulting, and even a little frightening: the people you trust to understand things, the people who are being trusted to possess a deep enough knowledge to guide the lives of others... cede their need for understanding and knowledge, relying instead on 'God'. Leaders shouldn't have that luxury of self-deception... and the rest of us shouldn't seek it. It's wrong, that willful denial of our faculties and our natures, and we should reject it.
For me, the last link was music. I attended parochial school as a boy, and I still have fond memories of the Christmas masses, where the entire student body would be gathered for the carols and hyms. "Angels we have heard on high" was a particular favorite of mine... hundreds of voices in unison singing "Gloria! In Excelsis Deo!" was a very... powerful... impression. But that's not God... it's Man... and I've found the same power in Pink Floyd (On the Turning Away, for example).
If there is any evidence of divinity, it lies in music... but that 'divinity' is the artistic power of Man, not any supernatural entity's impression.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
This is where your argument fails.
If A Muslim atributes gravity to Allah, you'd argue that it is based on their desire.
If a Jew atribuets gravity to Yahwy, you'd argue that it is based on disire.
If an atheist atributes gravity to nature, nature can be studied by all. So the atheist is not atributing life to the unprovable supernatural.
I don't base my atheism on the desire that there not be a god. I base my atheism on LACK OF EVIDENCE.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I desire to be good and therefore I try to be honest about everything.
If there is an important issue, and you just make up bullshit about that issue, without reasonable evidence, and claim that its true, then you're simply lying about something important.
If you're spreading bullshit that is not based on reasonable evidence then you're simply spreading lies
How is religion different then any other evil lying bullshit that people make up and spread without evidence?
I left Christianity because if its not evidentially true then its false, and if its false, then its evil.
when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"
I think someone got me wrong,
Basically I'm saying that religion itself seems to be of convenience, as far as atheism ghoes, I would find that to the contrary more so, unless there was a reason for benefit. MY hypothoesis is that it depends on what an individuals agenda is in life. That may seem a bit shallow, but I've seen it very often in people on many thingsd, anything to be fanatical about really.
Then you do have individuals who are really out there for the truth, for their own peace of mind, and if they be atheists, then I feel that they are by far the most humble, and indeed the most intelligent. Again, that's my opinion.
But I have seen in my own experience, peopel holding on to certain philosophies and certain rewligions, especially if they don't interfere with their personal agendas, or even compimpent said agedas; I see them as having a religion or philosophy for convenience.
I am an Ex-Christian.
This reminds me of the Caveman Geico comercial that looks like a news interview.
Anchor, "Do you have a response to that?"
Caveman, "Yes, I do.....What?"
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
"Social expediency" is the lightweight phrase you're looking for. Some people will do anything for the sake of social expediency. They'll even go to church! Poor bastards.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Not sure I follow what you mean.
I am an Ex-Christian.
So true.
Absolutely.
Or they are simply weak willed and don't have enough guts to stand up for themselves and must enjoy being sheep.
My parents were evangelical Christian Rethugs so I became one for a while. I did it because I thought my parents must have good reasons for it. A college education altered that view.
Or simply denied many advantages the Christian enjoys in modern America.
Not in my experience. I was the lone outcast.
My lack of belief in gods is based on reason and research. It certainly was not for convenience as my mother was once a Lutheran schoolteacher, my sister is a religious fanatic, and my niece is a missionary. My ex-wife and her family are all dedicated Catholics, meaning they go to mass more than twice a year. I almost became a minister once but my desires for sins of the flesh saved me. Though I guess I could have become a Catholic priest.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.