I like that outlook.  It makes perfect sense, but it seems so difficult to put into practice.

edit: especially if I'm engaged in any activity, it's very hard to remain objective.  In fact, when I am involved in any form of social or team-work intensive environment like work I find easy to remain objective on what tasks I have at hand, but not at the subject of the meaning of life.  I find it even more difficult to remain objective when trying to understand who I am.  It might be because I am an emotional creature, definately an animal.  Perhaps it is not outside my limitations to stay objective, that to remain objective is to sacrifice control?  It's hard to be objective when you're in a fight, but it's those who remain objective that win.  I wish it was easy, but I have a hard time remaining objective.

edit 2: What is purely objective anyway?  Since we can't see everything going on at the same time with complete understanding the how can we be perfectly objective?  All we have are tools we invented, both physical and intellectual, and history!  This is why saying there's a God and you know him makes no sense, because everything seems to come from tools and history.  It's what we make and what we make up.  The only way to know for sure is to test it out, which is why the scientific method remains the most reliable.  However, practicing this method, especially over emotions and what I think may be instinct, is not an easy task for everyone.

I'm with Jill on how "truth" is usually sold to people, and has too many emotial plays attached to the word.

All you can do is be as objective as possible. You won't always be right and you won't always have all the information, when being objective; but as long as you don't lie to yourself or ignore the reality of things, being objective will become second nature. It took me alot of rethinking/reprogramming of my mind to discard the shackles that the Catholic church and my parents put on my mind. It's not an easy path being rational, but it is the most moral path.

I agree with you SC, that we all see what we expect to see.  It takes talent to be truly open-minded, IMO.  I am CERTAIN that I have not achieved such a skill level...even though I consciously try to not be biased.

As far as someone describing to you what life is 'all about', I don't know that you can actually gain that information from another.  We, as humans, should learn what life means to US and how we can make the most of it, be helpful to others, and hopefully bring about a change for the better in the world in which we reside.  I believe that going through life without an instruction manual is horrifying to most...which is why folks cling so mightily to the bible...it has intructions in it. 

I would like to propose that having instructions just for the sake of having them is nonsensical.  One must decide if those instructions are actually valid, useful, or even correct...then discard them if they are not.  Just because 'everyone else is doing something' (believing), doesn't mean you have to.  (just remember what mom said about jumping off that bridge)

SC, you do not need to know anything except yourself.  YOU are you.  Nobody else is.  Own it, enjoy it, and live it.

Cheers!

Truth is best understood in terms of prediction. Truth is like an arrow. When we say that an arrow is 'true', we mean that when you aim it at a target, it will strike the target, rather than flying off and missing completely.

Newton's theory of motion is 'true', because when you use it to predict motion, it makes accurate predictions. What it predicts comes 'true'. The arrow strikes the target.

Einstein's theory of general relativity is 'more true' than Newton's laws, because it explains Newton's motion, but it also explains motion near the speed of light, which Newton's laws fail to do. When you look at motion near the speed of light, Newton's arrow misses the target, but Einstein's arrow strikes the target. Einstein makes better predictions, and so is 'more true'.

When you think of it this way, there is no such thing as 'absolute truth', because no one can possibly make perfect predictions. Post-determinism proves that perfect predictions of the future are impossible for very trivial cases.

BUT (and this is a very important but, which is why it's all caps, and why I'm emphasizing it in this parenthetical) there are *some* truths. There are even ways of knowing truths. And if you have some basic truths, you can discover even better truths. This is called 'learning'.

There are so many people today who say, "Well, if there's no absolute truth, then there's no truth at all. What's the point of even trying?" This is the root sentiment of postmodernism, nihilism, and other defeatist philosophies (we should call them misosophies, for these people *hate* wisdom). Unfortunately, people are sucked in by this silliness, while at the same time making use of modern technology, going to appointments on time, looking both ways before crossing the street, etc.

There is no Absolute Truth (tm), but there *are* some truths (small t). We *do* know some things. Reality is real, and we can discover it, though never perfectly. And not only is that okay, it's wonderful!

 Hey guys, it took me a while to reply because I've been overwhelmed by the thoughtful responses!  I suppose I'm in a vulnerable state where I'm trying to find a more profound meaning in my life then what I've already establsihed.  I suppose the two jobs, the gym, and becoming fiscally responsible has been wonderful, but it's not enouigh.  It's almost like I have a strong desire to have a sense of purpose with the entire universe. Narcism I think.  

I understand what science is and I use it every day.  In fact I've found science to be extremely beneficial with my work-ethic.  It's useful for being accurate, and with practice things speed up.  When applying science to every-day practical things, it's great.  When applying science to trying to understand things that I cannot know, it's nonsense.  The whole REAL truth is something we cannot know, maybe I just want to be special.

I'm doing very well in my life, and I owe a great deal of it to being practical.  Things are great.  Perhaps things are so well that I have too much free-time to think about things I can't even figure out.

Anyway, I was given a suggestion to read a book called "Philosophy: Who needs it?" and I want to check it out.  I'll be honest, I feel that I'm in a weak vulnerable state where I want to think irrationally.  It's almost as if the irrational thinking makes me feel better about myself, but in the end there is NO fruit and there is no progress.  So there is a dissonance between wanting testable progress in my life and understanding of the "meaning of life and purpose" - They seem to be competing in a strange way.  

In the past all pursuits into the "meaning of life" has only alienated me from the real truth.  It has only blinded me from what's really happening in my day to day life.  It has only caused me to stagnate and regurgitate the same thoughts and feelings for things unknown.  Religion can be such a STOPPER.  It can prevent you from knowing what's really happening aroud you, and what you don't know can kill you.  Imagine if we still thought seizures were demonic and instead of treating epilipsey we either ran off scared from people shaking on the ground or asked for a priest to exercise them.  My ex-gf thought that demons were the things that caused cars to break down (dead serious, she had a vision of a snake around the engine etc!)

 I mean, it's just an example, but religious or spiritual thought does things like that (some subtle) and sometimes I miss those crazy ideas but at the same time I've found that if you can test it and verify it, you can change it.  And if you can change it, you can make progress.  Progress is my motive and wiuthout it life would be pretty pointless me.  I feel like if I'm not learning something that is verifiable and can be put into practice / manipulated then I'm wasting my time.  At the same time I feel a dissonance because I want to believe in stupid things like astrology or magic or some profound explanation of what life is.  Sometimes I just want that "hidden nugget of truth" more than I want my coffee in the morning!

This self-observation might help shed light into why some of us cling to religion despite it's nonsense.  I refuse to go down the religious path, but it's not always easy for me to remain logical and rational.  I am human afterall.

 So why struggle with the meaning of life at all if it has no meaning?  Because life is so precious and finite.  We'll never come up with any philosophy that everyone will be dumbfounded by and say "THATS IT" - nothing that just comes out as a pure fact that can be used as evidence and tested and we can structure theories on.  

Life is what you make it, I guess.  I'm just trying to find mine.  If anything let me just say this is a humble plea to all freethinkers out there.  What should I do to stop this internal madness?  Applying reason works only for so long, perhaps I should just pick up some books on philosophy or other religions?  Maybe I need to just gain some more knowledge...

You're wise to realize this.  I wonder how many people waste their lives looking for real meaning when they had it all along.

It may not directly feel like it, but what you're searching for is predictive power.  If you can read the morning horoscope and get a little edge on the world, that's power.  Magic will let you cast a spell on that certain someone and make them love you.  God will give you life after death so that you don't feel like this is for nothing.  It's all predictive power.  Or, to put it more simply, it's all power.

There's nothing irrational about wanting power.  You're wise to realize that the quest for power can actually stifle your progress towards getting it.  Consider that while other people were searching for some deep meaning in their life, I was busy reading books about evolution.  Once I had read enough of them, I realized that it is self-actualizing for me to help other people understand it better.  Once I started doing that, I realized that my special interest lies in the evolution of human psychology and the roots of our sexuality.  By just living life I created my own meaning and purpose.  Had I been too busy worrying about what my meaning was, I'd have never acquired the knowledge to do something that gave my life more meaning.

You've been very indulgent to read the essays I've linked for you.  Here's another one:

Does Science Take Away Wonder and Awe?

If there is a lesson from all the scientists I mention in this essay, it's this:  Life is in the doing.  We wouldn't know any of these guys if they hadn't taken their human insecurities and foibles and run headlong with them into the fray.  I'm not suggesting you have to be a scientist, of course.  I'm saying that you'll be one step closer to getting past your tendencies toward irrationality if you just ignore them and find something productive to do as opposed to something to think about.  Make sense?

I hope that we can, actually.  (Ok... obviously not everybody.)  I think we can change the group mentality.  There are millions and millions of people who live by personal philosophies that don't include any personal rewards in the afterlife.  They find meaning in this life by examining their living of it.  Some have mystical explanations, like Buddhists, but the fact remains -- even though they're 'religious' in the traditional sense, their sense of meaning doesn't derive from higher purpose.  It derives from personal purpose.  It's the same with us atheists.  We just call our sense of longing for purpose what it is -- a human evolutionary trait.  Then we go about trying to find personal fulfilment the same way as anyone else.  By doing stuff until we find stuff that's fulfilling!

It may also make you feel better to know that your age might have a lot to do with it.  Youth and ennui and angst go together.  It will probably get better just by hanging around for another couple of decades.

I kind of like what you're saying about progress.  If you allow yourselves to become ensnared by other people’s dogma then you loose much of your ability to make progress, but if you keep an open mind then change is always possible.  Change is not always good, but with change there is hope for improvement.  To me the idea that human beings are capable of progress is very profound, and the idea that I can be a part of that progress by resisting dogmatic beliefs makes me feel that my life has some meaning in a broader sense.  

 Hey lums, I think HamBy nailed it with the power thing. that really hit home with me.  As far as progress goes, I've found that science has helped me improve my life in many ways;  from social to financial to health.  As far as knowing the truth, etc, and waht real truth is.  I can say that being objective is the best way to go, and I can also say that if anybody comes to me with "I have the truth and everyone else is wrong" I won't be believing them.

While I've found rationalism to be amazing in improving my life by practical means (Prosperity, Health, Social Life, Work Ethic) I have found an emptiness when dealing with "The maning of life" - I wonder where I should look, and indeed if what I find can be verified scientifically.

"There is no spoon."

I encourage you to continue looking within rationalism.  I believe the answer is there.  After all, I am a committed rationalist, and I feel a great sense of purpose and meaning in life, so... there must be purpose and meaning that can be found through rationalism.

I suspect there are two reasons many people think rationalism can't answer questions of meaning:

1) They don't fully understand rationalism

2) Answers from science are harder than answers from pseudoscience or religion.

As to the former, a lot of people see rationalism as cold and removed.  They think it takes away wonder and mystery.  I have discovered that it does exactly the opposite, but it's taken a lot of work to get here from there.  Did you read my essay about light and how a simple discovery opened up so many avenues of new mystery and wonder?

Also, a lot of people really don't understand that all questions can be answered rationally.  Granted, the answer to some questions is "it doesn't exist" or "that's a nonsense question," but those are the correct answers.

The second thing is probably just as big a problem.  Most people don't want to commit the time to learn the real answers to questions.  They just want a quick summary, and if they can't grasp it from that, they don't care to dig any deeper.  That's not the worst thing in the world, but a rationalist will demand of himself that he not take a stand on things he doesn't understand.  That's the tricky part.  Look, I know psychology, sociology and evolutionary psychology.  I don't know physics, astronomy, or electrical engineering.  I have no desire to learn them.  I live my life in a way that I avoid having to answer physics questions, and when they come up, I pass them on to someone who I trust to answer them correctly.  It's certainly possible to avoid the question of meaning in life because it involves studying evolution and psychology.  But... is it really possible to live life while deferring the question of meaning?

Not for me...