Why do lifeforms want to survive?

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Why do lifeforms want to survive?

Why is it that life itself at least in more complex forms want to survive?  This perplexes me!  So we can look at life and see that life has evolved becuase it's inherent push for survival, yet I can't fiigure out why life wants to survive.  I suppose I can't put a motive on life itself..  We can't exactly put life in a room and ask it "Why do you keep replicating, and when things get really tough you find ways to change and continue replicating?"

If you look at life from an evolutionary stand-point it started as one single celled organism..  This organism changes each time it replicates, and as generations go by the following organisms die for different reasons.  This causes new organisms to emerge simply because the environment is constantly changing..  Eventually we have a planet completely covered with it's ancestors!  The ancestors are so diverse and they all have one extremely important thing in common; they all want to survive and reproduce!  

With humanity we seem to have a strange exception.  I won't go as far as to say that other animals do not share this quality however.  Humans will die for a cause; yes! People will die for what they believe in.  The first thing that comes to mind is suicide. Some people kill themselves and leave a note behind; letting other people know why they did it.  Others kill for someone they love, or even an idea.

When I break this down, why does life itself want to pro-create, evolve, diversify, and continue to survive through anything?  This single celled organism and it's will to suriive eventually became a life form that is almost adaptable to every earth-related phenomina, capable of survive through catastrophic weather, earthquakes, almost every climate on earth, and so on.  If anything has subdued this earth, it is not humanity, but life itself!  

So why does life want to survive in the first place?  Why is life programmed to feel pain, and to avoid things that would cuase it to die?  Why does life strive to replicate itself? 


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SmallChristian wrote:So why

SmallChristian wrote:

So why does life want to survive in the first place?

 

Life doesn't inherently "want" to survive. It's just that if it doesn't want to survive, then, ditto, it doesn't survive.

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Why is life programmed to feel pain, and to avoid things that would cuase it to die?

If it didn't try to avoid death, then it would be dead. The ones that are alive are the ones that avoid death.

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Why does life strive to replicate itself?
 

The ones that don't replicate, go extinct. The ones that still exist are the ones that replicate.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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 So that's funamentally the

 So that's funamentally the only reason why I want to survive? 


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SmallChristian wrote: So

SmallChristian wrote:

 So that's funamentally the only reason why I want to survive? 

Biologically, yes. 

But since we're sentient beings, I'm sure we can come up with some more specific reasons.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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SmallChristian wrote: So

SmallChristian wrote:

 So that's funamentally the only reason why I want to survive? 

An honest question but also one that theists jump up and say, "You need a magical cause to explain it"

What we do know, besides the simplicity that something either survives or it doesnt, is that our developed brains allow us to define our own individual purpose and no magical being does that for us, we do it ourselves.

 

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To a biologist, this

To a biologist, this question can be answered a priori. Biological life is defined by replication. The basis of all biological life are molecular structures which are templates to guide their own synthesis. From a chemical standpoint, this property is so fundamental it is often employed as a definitional guide for biology. This is not a matter of "intrinsic drive" to replicate. It is merely that the replication process is a consequence of the molecular structure of the fundamental molecules whose physiochemical properties are responsible for the existence of biological life. For modern organisms, this means DNA, which meets the above definition (it is a template to guide its own synthesis). Thus, if we are to consider this as a purely chemical property, the existence of such structures will guarantee that replication will occur. Furthermore it will also guarantee that a form (however primitive, if we are considering the dawn of life) will occur. The first processes that gave rise to the fundamentals of biological life were primitive evolutionary processes which were purely consequences of the chemical properties of the molecules that acted as replicator units. This is expounded upon by me here:

Chemical Evolution

It's not a matter of life having an intrinsic "drive" to replicate. This discredited idea of a vital essence has long since been refuted. The modern view is that because life is based on molecules that do replicate as a consequence of their physical properties, selection processes will occur even at primitive levels (i.e during the process of chemical evolution that constituted a 900 million year period after the formation of Earth) because, since the molecules do replicate then those that will proliferate more and thus become more frequent in a pool of replicators are those who traits imbue them with improved replicative success. Again, this is purely a discussion of physical properties and not some "intrinsic drive" of any sort. As time went on and the selection process created finer machinery by which replication processes could occur, the machinery sustaining the replicators had to be able to replicate as well. Since this machinery is all under the control of and is formed from, the actual replicators (in other words, those molecules with those physical properties), they are tools evolved by which the replicators can replicate more successfully. Again, this is a relatively modern view, and is largely based off the work of Richard Dawkins in the 1970s. Dawkins' key insight was that nucleotide sequences themselves constitute the units of selection. If we begin with replicators that replicate purely on the basis of their physical properties, and replicate in such a way that allows for the process of selection to occur, then we can see that as complex machinery to sustain and aid the propogation of replication units arises, this machinery will work in such a way as to maximize the replication potential of the DNA (or whatever molecular structure is being discussed). Again, this is not a matter of the DNA having an intrinsic desire to replicate. The replicators can program the machinery (like us) in such a way that if that machinery happened to be aware and have emotional capacity, that machinery could have the desire to do something like have sex (which would lead to the continuation of genetic material) but this only occurs because selection selects for DNA sequences which tend to program their machinery to do this, because it is stochastically favorable for replicators with this property to occur. That is the crucial point. Natural selection has nothing to do with intrinsic drive to replicate. It simply has to do with the fact that any replicator which replicates more successfully will proliferate with greater frequency (which is blindingly obvious). The reason that we have the desire to replicate is because we are programmed to. And the reason that our DNA sequences program us to do this is not because of some innate desire of them to replicate, but rather because, since they do replicate, those traits which replicate more successfully will be more frequent.

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SmallChristian wrote: So

SmallChristian wrote:

 So that's funamentally the only reason why I want to survive? 

Pretty much - those organisms that did not have a built-in instinct to react in such a way as to avoid being killed by predators or by common natural events like fires and floods are less likely to survive and reproduce. So such an instinct or 'drive' is going to be part of every life-form that is the end of a long chain of variation/selection (AKA evolution), ie every life-form on Earth. This is one of the clearest examples of how evolution works, how logical is the basic process.

It is a basic instinct, like the drive to eat when hungry and drink when thirsty which we are talking about, rather than a conscious judgement or decision. It would require a conscious effort or a mental illness to develop a 'wish' to go against any of the basic urges, to eat, drink, reproduce, avoid life-threatening circumstances, etc.

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SmallChristian wrote: Why is

SmallChristian wrote:

Why is it that life itself at least in more complex forms want to survive?  This perplexes me!  So we can look at life and see that life has evolved becuase it's inherent push for survival, yet I can't fiigure out why life wants to survive.  I suppose I can't put a motive on life itself..  We can't exactly put life in a room and ask it "Why do you keep replicating, and when things get really tough you find ways to change and continue replicating?"

The first error is in the question in the use of want to. Without getting into a debate on the latest animal research only humans can form desires. One does not anthromorphize nature. Similarly concepts such as motive and why have no place in this discussion.

SmallChristian wrote:
If you look at life from an evolutionary stand-point it started as one single celled organism..  This organism changes each time it replicates, and as generations go by the following organisms die for different reasons.  This causes new organisms to emerge simply because the environment is constantly changing.. Eventually we have a planet completely covered with it's ancestors!  The ancestors are so diverse and they all have one extremely important thing in common; they all want to survive and reproduce!

Why are all blue cars blue? Why do all rectangles have four sides? Why is it that all life we see survived? The simple fact of survival indicates "behavior" which is survival prone.

SmallChristian wrote:
With humanity we seem to have a strange exception.  I won't go as far as to say that other animals do not share this quality however.  Humans will die for a cause; yes! People will die for what they believe in.  The first thing that comes to mind is suicide. Some people kill themselves and leave a note behind; letting other people know why they did it.  Others kill for someone they love, or even an idea.

Such behavior is a characteristic of social species. It is seen in ants. It is a credible question regarding humans which came first, the belief or the enemy. Anyone who has followed the lead up to wars has seen the threat come first with the reasons the other side is no damned good coming after.

SmallChristian wrote:
When I break this down, why does life itself want to pro-create, evolve, diversify, and continue to survive through anything?  This single celled organism and it's will to suriive eventually became a life form that is almost adaptable to every earth-related phenomina, capable of survive through catastrophic weather, earthquakes, almost every climate on earth, and so on.  If anything has subdued this earth, it is not humanity, but life itself!

The answer is very simple. Life which does not do that does not survive.

The Darwinian theory of evolution explains what is. With it the principles of survival can be deduced. Why does the only life which has survived exhibit behavior which increases the likelihood of survival? Those which do not became food long ago.

SmallChristian wrote:
So why does life want to survive in the first place?  Why is life programmed to feel pain, and to avoid things that would cuase it to die?  Why does life strive to replicate itself?

Why is there air?

If you want to understand evolution you have to take a different perspective from the one you exhibit here.

Why pain? It aids survival. It works for the simplest multicelled animals. It requires no self-image, no comprehension of being injured or damaged.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Many thanks to Bobspense and

Many thanks to Bobspense and deludedgod for explaining it.  I'm very curious about "vital essense" now.  To be honest, I struggled with this question because it seems to me the answer was "life wants to survive because it wants to survive" (circular) and it reminds me how important it is to have a good understanding of how life works.  It's amazing how life works can give us insight as into why life works.  It wasn't meant to be a question akin to "why are cirlces round?" or anything like that.  More or less I struggle with "Why does life want to survive in the first place?" 

Who would have ever thought that life would end up trying to figure out it's own existance eons down the road after it's emergence.  It makes me wonder if there are other properties other than life with the ability to begin to question itself.  Does life as we know it have to be the only thing in this universe to emerge to have a consciense?  I don't think so, while highly improbably considering what we know today.  The greatest thing is science never claims to be all knowing, but continously progresses as we make new discoveries and inventions.

I know that many people like to differntiate life into species, but I think it's possible to look at life as we know it as a whole.  To imagine that life has pretty much covered this entire planet, from the deepest depths the coldest regions in the north and south, the descendants of a single-celled organism have succesfully taken over the earth.  Diverse as life is, it's single shared ancestor proves to me that life is more or less the same(life on earth anyway as it is defined) - and as humans aquire new technolgies and populate space, life can have no limits as to where it can propogate itself.  Starting as a one celled organism, into a huge diverese 'superorganism' that covers the entire planet, to consciensness and inquiry, life is truely an amazing thing!

To look how it all began, as a chemical process to a complex machine, it just blows my mind!


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 Quote:I know that many

 

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I know that many people like to differntiate life into species, but I think it's possible to look at life as we know it as a whole.

You're onto something with this.  Actually, the term "species" is kind of a pain in the ass for a lot of biologists.  Remember, linnaean taxonomy was invented before the discovery of common descent and DNA.

E.O. Wilson, the biologist who literally wrote the book on sociobiology, has spent a good bit of his writing career trying to explain in layman's terms how life "builds up" to the point of sentience and the concept of self.  It's not so hard to imagine a single cell as surviving because it did things that made it survive.  That's pretty simple.  All the things that could have become cells if only they'd have tried to survive died billions of years ago.  What we have to remember is that human consciousness is built on billions of years of 100% successful survival.  In other words, you are a direct descendent of the first replicator that was ultimately responsible for life on earth.  Every single one of your ancestors -- billions of them -- survived long enough to reproduce.  (That's a pretty amazing thought, even if it is obvious on one level!)

Flip the question around.  Considering that every one of billions of ancestors of yours did things that made it survive -- and quite automatically, without the need for consciousnees -- would it make any sense at all that suddenly, when consciousness evolved, it would have a death wish?

 

 

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 Quote:Flip the question

 

Quote:
Flip the question around.  Considering that every one of billions of ancestors of yours did things that made it survive -- and quite automatically, without the need for consciousnees -- would it make any sense at all that suddenly, when consciousness evolved, it would have a death wish?

Equally mind-blowing!  There are so many reasons for suicide.  Who would have thought that after billions of years of evolution, life switches from pure survival to self-destruction.  It kinda shows that life has no motive, and it just is.  The life that survives remains, because the life that does not goes into history.  The greatest thing is this question doesn't cause it's opposite to create a contradiction.  Flipping this question around both ways still leads to the same concept; the concept that life doesn't have an inherent desire to survive, but that life that succeeds in survivng is all that continues to stay around.  The life that does kill itself goes away.  Consciousness that is self-destructive to the point of extinction will only fine-tune survival!  In fact, consciousness it seems has it's own tools (we're not aware of all of them) in maintining survival.  From synthetic happiness to having a high "sense of importance" - our less inquisitive and drive to be irrational seems to benefit the survival instinct.

 


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I don't have much to add

I don't have much to add about a self-preserving and procreating instincts of sub-human life. These properties seems to be so fundamental laws of nature, that discussing their origin is almost philosophic.
In my opinion, humans are a different cathegory. They can also function on a biologic level, but once they satisfy these basic needs, the next priority is to find the sense of life.

I have a question about a survival of species. Let's say we have a population of birds on an isolated island in Pacific ocean, rarely visited by people. The birds are thus not afraid of them. When this island becomes suddenly an object of tourists' hunting trips, the birds who survives learns to be afraid of the humans.
The question is, how does the birds learn that, and their next generations, specifically? I could understand that if one of several birds survives a direct shooting, then he has a direct learning experience. But how is this taught to the young birds? Does the old ones somehow say it to their youngs? Or does they learn it by observing the older being aware when a human walks around? Can a population which learned to fear humans forget this fear in some time?

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Luminon wrote:I don't have

Luminon wrote:
I don't have much to add
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Luminon wrote:I don't have

Luminon wrote:

I don't have much to add about a self-preserving and procreating instincts of sub-human life. These properties seems to be so fundamental laws of nature, that discussing their origin is almost philosophic.
In my opinion, humans are a different cathegory. They can also function on a biologic level, but once they satisfy these basic needs, the next priority is to find the sense of life.

I have a question about a survival of species. Let's say we have a population of birds on an isolated island in Pacific ocean, rarely visited by people. The birds are thus not afraid of them. When this island becomes suddenly an object of tourists' hunting trips, the birds who survives learns to be afraid of the humans.
The question is, how does the birds learn that, and their next generations, specifically? I could understand that if one of several birds survives a direct shooting, then he has a direct learning experience. But how is this taught to the young birds? Does the old ones somehow say it to their youngs? Or does they learn it by observing the older being aware when a human walks around? Can a population which learned to fear humans forget this fear in some time?

 

The answer to your question lies in the fact that it is not about learning at all, but the algorithmic process of natural selection.

 

The fact of the matter is, within any population of birds, there will be some that have more fearful tempraments, and who will run away from any large ground predator, and there are some who will ignore large ground predators, and many other variations inbetween.

Before humans came, the birds would have had only a few predators to worry about. Those with less fearful temperaments would have dominated in the population, because the sight of a dangerous predator would be so rare. Those with fearful tempraments would be more likely to miss out on oportunities for food, nesting, etc. The thus produce fewer young and become less prevalent in the population.

If there are no natural predators for many hundreds of thousands of years, this trend can sometimes lead to flightlessness in birds.

However, as humans arrive on the island, they become an extremely dangerous ground predator to the birds. Those with fearless tempraments now are more likely to be hunted, poached, or otherwise killed by humans. They are less likely to pass on their genes to their offspring, and over time, that minority population of birds that all had fearful tempraments would come to dominate on the island.


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Luminon wrote:I don't have

Luminon wrote:

I don't have much to add about a self-preserving and procreating instincts of sub-human life. These properties seems to be so fundamental laws of nature, that discussing their origin is almost philosophic.
In my opinion, humans are a different cathegory. They can also function on a biologic level, but once they satisfy these basic needs, the next priority is to find the sense of life.

I have a question about a survival of species. Let's say we have a population of birds on an isolated island in Pacific ocean, rarely visited by people. The birds are thus not afraid of them. When this island becomes suddenly an object of tourists' hunting trips, the birds who survives learns to be afraid of the humans.
The question is, how does the birds learn that, and their next generations, specifically? I could understand that if one of several birds survives a direct shooting, then he has a direct learning experience. But how is this taught to the young birds? Does the old ones somehow say it to their youngs? Or does they learn it by observing the older being aware when a human walks around? Can a population which learned to fear humans forget this fear in some time?

Don't take this the wrong way... Is English a second language for you?


 

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spike.barnett wrote:Don't

spike.barnett wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way... Is English a second language for [Luminon]? 

If I recall, it's his third (fourth?). I can't remember the first language - Lithuanian? He told me a while ago.

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theotherguy: Thanks, it

theotherguy

: Thanks, it gives sense now. I never thought about it, because this process seemed too slow to me, but I now guess this is the case, in fact.

spike.barnett wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way... Is English a second language for you?

No, it's actually fourth. I'd be very glad if you'd help me see what I write incorrectly. Probably the word order and sentence construction, I guess I use the one of my native language.

 

Don't think I'm a linguistic genius, I just live in a multicultural region and family. The languages I know besides English are local or from neighbouring states, all slavonic and thus partially similar to each other. Also, some of them I know rather passively.

But what could really help would be to invite me to your area somewhere in the future. I want to live, work and study in an english-speaking country and I currently work to earn enough of money for the travel and initial housing expenses. If I won't get any reliable offers from the farther, I'd probably end up on British islands, as this is the closest place, but I'd love to be near a group of some fellow intellectuals.

HisWillness wrote:

If I recall, it's his third (fourth?). I can't remember the first language - Lithuanian? He told me a while ago.

Smiling No, it's Czech language. You remember, that one state in the middle of Europe with world's top alcohol consumption per capita and highway building price, a place where everything is possible. (to steal)


 

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Luminon wrote:No, it's

Luminon wrote:

No, it's actually fourth. I'd be very glad if you'd help me see what I write incorrectly. Probably the word order and sentence construction, I guess I use the one of my native language.

I was just wondering. I noticed sometimes when you write you have a kind of awkward approach. I didn't want to jump to conclusions about your intelligence before asking though. I speak English as my native tongue, so it's easy for me to pick out errors, but I wouldn't expect it of you as it is your 4th language. I would say you know it rather well given the circumstances.

If you would've asked about moving 6 months ago (which was before I joined the site) I was actually looking for a roommate. But then Spartan took a huge blow and I lost my job and had to move. It was in the national news actually. Some of the people here that live in the states may have read about it in the paper. I wouldn't consider my town one full of intellectuals though. It's kind of a backwater town just south of Lansing, MI. As of the 2000 census the population was 8,389, as opposed to the Lansing area at 447,728.

I knew a guy who's mother was from the Czech Republic. As I hear it, he ended up quite the drinker...

If you'd like help with sentence structure or anything I'd be glad to help. The most common issue I've noticed with your writing is improper inflection.

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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