Fuck us? No, fuck you.
Offline With every other headline revealing new excesses from the bankers who came to our representatives on bended knee pleading for help, I think it's time to take matters into our own hands. Initially I was on board with the bail out. A rare moment of optimism. I didn't like the fact that it had to be done, but I recognized it as a necessary evil. I was under the impression that even if the Bush administration was hapless and impotent, Congress would craft legislation with some hefty strings attached. I thought even if they didn't, the banks receiving this money would in the interest of survival spend it wisely. If they're too big to fail they certainly wouldn't do anything to hasten their demise, right? Apparently I was wrong. Apparently the old addages "If you want something done right, do it yourself.", and "Money talks, bullshit walks." still apply.
I'm not advocating removing your money from the financial system entirely, but I would like to suggest that anyone who banks with Citi, B of A, Chase or any of these other institutions that have taken our money and spit in our eye; withdraw and relocate their money to smaller establishments. Think local banks and credit unions. This will hopefully still leave banks capable of moving capital while forcing the aforementioned dick bags to fall flat on their faces.
What do you think?
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
- Login to post comments
Proud credit union member here.
Holla!
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
It certainly isn't just those three or four big banks that are part of the problem.
It was discovered that Wells Fargo had planned a Vegas Vacation for its top employees. Today, they canceled it when it hit the media. Originally they were going to defend the Vegas trip by saying it was for employee training and appreciation.
The smaller banks will of course simply do more to hide these little inconvenient media discoveries. They will pass under our radar.
AIG used almost $500,000 for a few days for 'employee retention' purposes this last fall. They have received 6 times the funds of these other banks from the government yet they maintain that stopping the practice of rewarding executives was never part of the original deal.
Personally, I'd like to see the banks fuck the whole lot of American 'interests' by upping their leverage instead of lowering their at-risk assets.
We're giving them capital and expecting them to loan it out for people to buy more things to drive demand up which in turn drives up production and employs more people. John Maynard Keynes economic plan. Government gives money expecting people to spend it.
Unfortunately for Keynesians everywhere, they forget that in America $1 is equalt to $40 if it is leveraged in investments.
i.e. I buy an orange for a dollar and trade it for 40 apples that I'm going to sell for $.10 each. I only sell 6 apples and 34 apples go bad and I'm out $.40.
What do I do? I quit buying fucking oranges. That is the logical thing.
Logic doesn't always work for financial people. Instead of not buying oranges, the government gives me $2 to buy oranges. I buy a $1 orange and pocket the other $1 so that I can pay it back a little at a time while I buy bananas for $.5 each to sell for $.10.
Now, I have little risk because the government gets their little repayment based upon how many apples for oranges I have traded and sold. I collect the profits from the bananas and decide to leverage that money into buying 1 cabbage to trade for 40 potatoes.
Voila!
The process repeats.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Wells Fargo's family vacation was the straw that broke my back. I just didn't feel like doing the extra typing.
It seems like what's necessary is to only spend stimulus money on job creation, and the only dealing with the banks should revolve around refinancing all these bad loans.
I saw that the Republicans thought it would be a bad idea to include updating government fleets as part of the stimulus package. Apparently there are no auto plants here in America....
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Just gotta throw this in. The company I work for is a non profit organization that exists on state and federal handouts. It sent all of the senior administrative staff to Vegas for vacation summer before last , and to Hawaii last year. Our government grant money at work!
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
Huh, did you choose Jesus flipping the bird for your avatar just to tell us this?
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
This is probably obvious for people who understand economics better then I do. Please tell me what the Oranges, apples, and bananas stand for in the metaphor.
What would Jesus do?
Sorry.
Products, financing, and consumption.
Let's try houses.
One house can turn into 4 properties all unpaid for.
I get a loan for a house.
I then use the unpaid for house as collateral on a loan for another house of equal or lesser value.
The value on both houses goes up either by my work or the market's work.
I use the second house to get a loan which I use part of for both of the house payments and to get a third loan to buy another house.
I do the same thing for a fourth house.
I use the fourth house to get a loan to make the 3rd and 4th house payments and my own capital.
The interest rate goes up.
I have to get a fifth house loan to supplement the payments for the other four and to pay for itself.
It runs too expensive. I fall behind. I can't get credit to get a sixth house loan.
I then have to sell one of the houses. Unfortunately, the market value of the house has depreciated and I don't get enough from the sale of the house to even pay it off.
I default because I had leveraged the borrowed money past its original value of one house with a second mortgage.
Now...
I've only done this with 5 houses.
In the financial market, they can use 1 loan to issue up to 40 others of equal or lesser value because they are expecting to be repaid enough to make the payment on the initial loan.
However, if my $1 loan requires a payment of $.10 and my 40 loans only return $.06 then I have to get credit from another source for the other $.04, which I then have to leverage in order to make the payment on that loan.
Right now, banks are de-leveraging (a made up word I know). They are using their collected payments to pay off loans they have gotten instead of getting new loans to pay on old ones. AND they aren't issuing new credit because they simply can't go back into doing so until their balances (balance sheets) are back within their original leverage parameters.
Insurance companies offered policies to finance companies to prevent missing loan payments. The insurance companies did the same exact thing. One policies payment could be used to write four others. BECAUSE... [SARCASM] it just wouldn't make sense for more than one of the little ones to fail at a time.[/SARCASM]
AIG found out that YES, more than one or two can fail together and make a run on the policy. If you have leveraged too far then you can't pay off multiple claims. They would have had to default on the multiple claims.
If this still is fuzzy. I have terms for you to google on your own and learn this one piece of economics.
Credit Default Swap. Financial Leveraging.
and my most-hated word in the 'American' vernacular = Securitization
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Thats Jesus? I thought it was a stoned hippie!
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
I thought Jesus looked like this.
God damn hippies. You know, all their fornicating and dope smoking is going to lead to the downfall of America.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
52:1
Just staring at the balance sheet of one of the nine largest banks.
Leveraged 52 to 1, tangible assets to liabilities.
Receivables = 1.13% of tangible assets
TARP money makes 37.5% of capital available on hand. 3% of the TARP money goes out per quarter in liability. Eventually, a payment on the TARP will add to liability.
Minus TARP money, balance sheet goes negative by May '09 at present rate of change. They will have to use the TARP money to loan out in order to stay above water or they will have to fire more people.
They have done this to themselves.
I'm with nutxaq. Fuck 'em.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Hold on, now, boys: you don't have to say "fuck 'em", you own 'em!
It wasn't a bailout, it was a controlling purchase. Americans just got nationalized banks! Welcome to socialism, friends. I'm sure the government is going to pretend like the financial system is still private until it has to pull strings, and everyone will either be shocked or relieved depending on how deep the recession goes.
But let's be honest: socialized banks work better anyway, so it's not like you're losing out. I have to hand it to Bernanke, he's a wiz kid. I thought for sure his plan was short-sighted. But I didn't see his brilliant end-game. Clever son of a bitch.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I don't get what people's problem with socialism is. It should be painfully obvious by now that capitalism is all about making the rich richer and the poor poorer.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
The problem with socialism is that it's all about making those in control richer, and the rest poorer.
That's the problem with all political and economic ideals: they fail to take into account human ingenuity in fucking over other humans. In fact, the more people you can fuck over, the wealthier and more powerful you get.
I think that for some things, socialism is better (necessary infrastructure, like road systems, telecommunications, health care, education, and so on). For other things, maybe not so much. But it doesn't matter what economic system you choose: those who want to be wealthy, and are in a position to place themselves in superior positions, will always find a way to make their money at the expense of others.
I'm extremely suspicious of capitalism. I've seen it destroy the common good (*cough*Microsoft*cough*). But at the same time, I haven't seen any indication that people are necessarily getting better (nicer to each other). Hell, I see enough casual selfishness every day on the drive to and from work to make me realize many people will screw over others for just a slight advantage, or even just for the appearance of an advantage. So every system is flawed by its own idealism, while not taking into account human nature.
I fucking hate people. Maybe that's my problem.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
I see your point. But the problem with Capitalism is that the ideal is for people to fuck over other people. Capitalism encourages selfishness as a virtue. By it's very definition people have to fight for their piece of the pie. You have to succeed at the expense of others. I would say Capitalism is easier to exploit because people have this idea that people who are in a good position deserve to be there.
[edit]
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
You'll get no argument from me. Although Matt Shizzle was a bit over-the-top in his poisonous rants against capitalism, I know how he feels. I have been fortunate in that capitalism at least encourages meritocracy among those who are able to participate. I have mad, mad computer skillz that are always in demand, although my jive-talk is always at least a decade out of date. But I have seen way too many people work hard (much harder than me), at two or three jobs, and barely scrape by. If capitalism worked, and the mantra, "Work hard and you will succeed," was true, I have friends who should be millionaires. Instead, they work hard, and those above them get paid very nicely indeed.
It's a tough problem, Spike. I wish we here could find a solution. All I know is (getting back to the OP), those bastards who are receiving bonuses are the same ones who created this problem in the first place. They created the problem by being willing to fuck over many other people, with no regard to the consequences.
And you know what? Most people would've done the same. I'm not sure what I would've done, to be honest. A little self-delusion can go a long way.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
To be honest, I think it's always going to be 10/10/80. I forget who first came up with this one (wasn't me), but it goes like this:
10% of the people have most of the power;
10% of the people are the intellectual elite;
80% of the people are cannon fodder.
When I say "intellectual elite", I mean anyone who went to college, because that's anywhere from 20 to 25% who completed a bachelor's degree in any western population, and half of those people are in the 10% with the power.
The idea that the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer is only slightly misleading. You might just say that the rich remain rich while the poor remain poor. Since "poor" is relative to the mean, if anyone who's rich gets richer, that automatically means that relative to that new richer person, the poor just got poorer by comparison. Add inflation to the mix, and I'd say you have a case.
And when someone who makes a decent living trading currencies like yours truly says "add inflation to the mix" after mentioning Ben Bernanke, and darth_josh just mentioned Keynes, it's a safe bet that there's a real ass-raping on the horizon. Unprecedented increase of the money supply is what I'm talking. Just sayin'.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Sounds about right. I want to get the hell out of here, but I'd be a fool not to stay and get my degree before I leave.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
Apparently going to college didn't help you understand the premise of socialism.
I'm out.
And I'll happily remain cannon fodder given that few among the 'intellectually elite' (by your standards) are capable of comprehending the complex machinations of minor market manipulation.
Have a nice rest of the recession.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Oh, c'mon - I was totally egging you on with "socialist banks work better". What, you're not going to say anything to that?
Boooo! Come back and argue - it's way more fun!
Oh pff. As if you're cannon fodder. You know the people I'm talking about. The Wal Mart and McDonald's set. The people who might be impressed with Kirk Cameron's oratory style.
There are also people among those who have gotten themselves a degree who I'd place firmly in the cannon fodder category. That wasn't a definition, I was just demonstrating how inclusive "intellectual elite" is. For my purposes, that would be "curious people who like to read".
Baby, don't be that way. The Keynsians meant nothing to me!
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Wow. Angry much?
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
That banana totally fit right in his hand. Maybe you should watch the video again.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
Every time I remember that video, I die a little on the inside. The first time I saw it, I had to watch it again, because it killed all the brain cells that had experienced it before.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I suffered the same dilemma. I had to watch it about 4 times before I understood that he was seriously trying to make that into an argument for God.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
I had to take a rape shower.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
OH! Ladies and gentlemen, that was the line, and we're way past it!
Whoo.
Well done.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
It's ok to cross the line as long as it funny, and I had a good laugh.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace