Vatican takes aim at Dawkins.

Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 16463
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Vatican takes aim at Dawkins.

Tell me how someone with no biology degree who's goal is to convince you to symbolically canibalize human flesh, and wants you to believe that dissimbodied beings knock up girls, has any credibility to call Dawkins claims "absurd".

Take note of the first paragraph, the Vatican says it does not stand in the way of evolution science.........THAT IS FUCKING HALLARIOUS AND A FLAT OUT LIE, they are forced to accept reality, and are always Johny come latelys when caught in a lie. The Vatican didn't officially accept the world as being round until the Pope was shown a satilite photo of the planet.

WHO THE FUCK does this penis head think he is to talk about science?

If anyone hear can read this without puking, you deserve a medel.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hJK9enh8baMhdRguzkPFWcjJj9NQD96MJ1JG1

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
 Well, it's our old friend

 Well, it's our old friend the straw man.  He's right, of course.  Evolution doesn't prove that there's no god.  Dawkins doesn't say that it does.  He says that evolution proves that life is not intelligently designed.  These are two vastly different statements.  Yes, Dawkins uses evolution as a fundamental support for his comprehensive argument that there is no god, but I've never heard him say evolution proves there is no god.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Quote:"We believe that

Quote:
"We believe that however creation has come about and evolved, ultimately God is the creator of all things," he said.

He said that while the Vatican did not exclude any area of science, it did reject as "absurd" the atheist notion of biologist and author Richard Dawkins and others that evolution proves there is no God.

"Of course we think that's absurd and not at all proven," he said. "But other than that ... the Vatican has recognized that it doesn't stand in the way of scientific realities."

Well, two things:

1) How can you claim to, "Not exclude any area of science," and yet immediately reject the entire process as a whole by insisting on a positive claim with no evidence to support yourself?

As soon as you put that little, "But other than on the issue of God...," disclaimer in there, you're creating an exclusion.

 

2) ...What the Hell is up with the Vatican lately? They've been very active and outspoken for the last few months. It's like they've caught the scent of blood.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


mrjonno
Posts: 726
Joined: 2007-02-26
User is offlineOffline
You arent going to get the

You arent going to get the Vatican  fighting directly science these days, its got its fingers burnt too many times doing this (well burnt everyone elses fingers). It employs its own physicists, astronomers  biologists etc

Not to say it won't twist and manipulate scientific progress but its not going to make scientific statements about the modern world that can easily be disproved. Ancient world of course is a different matter


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5939
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Of course evolution does not

Of course evolution does not 'prove' there is no God, what Darwin did is take virtually all the force out of what had been one of the major arguments for the existence of a Creator being. It provides a highly plausible explanation for the emergence of the complex adaptive nature of life.

Of course it actually does go further, in that it explains many aspects of the natural world that are not prima facie consistent with the idea of Creation.

For example, why is there so much variation, why so many different species filling the same niche in different geographical locations rather than one 'optimally designed' one? It also explains all the serious imperfections in the 'design', like our trouble-prone backbone that is not well adapted to upright posture, or our eye with its blood vessels in front of the retina, unlike that of the octopus, etc, etc. All naturally following from the need for each feature to be formed as a series of small changes from pre-existing attributes as must happen with the evolutionary process. These and other related observations were what troubled the young Darwin, who was still a Christian believer at the time, since they seemed so inconsistent with the idea of individual creation by a powerful omniscient Deity.

Of course, the idea of a Creator being simply cannot logically be an ultimate explanation for existence anyway, so the Vatican is wedded to a concept which is neither explains anything nor is explicable in itself, ie God...

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


mrjonno
Posts: 726
Joined: 2007-02-26
User is offlineOffline
It makes a mockery of the

It makes a mockery of the literal telling of the bible but most christians had stopping believe in that by the 19th century . It does make a mockery of creationism but this is  basically an American 20th century invention.

 

It really depends on how much you want to take religious books as stories with err strong moral tales (not sure what these moral tales are but hey the god squad love em)


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
 It also fucks up the

 It also fucks up the concept of original sin.  Since there was never any such thing as "the first couple," when, why, and how did God decide on two arbitrary early humans and what was their crime for which all of humanity is being punished.  If humans should split into different species in the future, would both species be under original sin?  Presumably, some Christians believe the rapture will occur before that, but they still must address the question of what original sin means, and original sins, kiddos, is THE foundation of Christianity.  Without it, nothing else makes any sense.  Well... not that it makes sense anyway, but you get the point.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 16463
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote: It also

Hambydammit wrote:

 It also fucks up the concept of original sin.  Since there was never any such thing as "the first couple," when, why, and how did God decide on two arbitrary early humans and what was their crime for which all of humanity is being punished.  If humans should split into different species in the future, would both species be under original sin?  Presumably, some Christians believe the rapture will occur before that, but they still must address the question of what original sin means, and original sins, kiddos, is THE foundation of Christianity.  Without it, nothing else makes any sense.  Well... not that it makes sense anyway, but you get the point.

Now Bob Spence is, like a drug hound, can spot what I am about to say clopping a head(inside joke to him).

The bottem line is magic doesn't exist and theists dont want to face that all the crap they spew is nothing but a gap answer.

Virgins dont get pregnant via "POOF, ghost logic" anymore than Thor magically slams clouds together to make lighting and thunder, anymore than I can fart a Lamborghini out of my ass.

But if you have any doubts about Jesus, let me remind you that he was speared in the side, all the blood drained out of his body, he suffered complete orgain failure, brain death and celular death, only to magically survive rigor mortis via the "Poof" logic of "God did it".

Hambi, why don't you bow to the naked assertion of tradition? WHAT THE F IS WRONG WITH YOU?

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
The fact that anyone on this

The fact that anyone on this Earth continues to take the Vatican seriously is utterly beyond my powers of comprehension.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Jormungander
atheistScience Freak
Jormungander's picture
Posts: 938
Joined: 2008-07-15
User is offlineOffline
Meh. This is bad, but I

Meh. This is bad, but I suppose that I don't think that it is a big deal. The Vatican is blathering about things they don't understand and misrepresenting the positions of atheists. Sounds like a run-of-the-mill day for them. Saying stupid things is a full time job for them. Most people say stupid things an a strictly volunteer basis, but the Vatican is literally paid to spout of nonsense like this.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


geirj
geirj's picture
Posts: 719
Joined: 2007-06-19
User is offlineOffline
"We believe that however

"We believe that however creation has come about and evolved, ultimately God is the creator of all things," he said.

A bit wishy-washy about the creation story coming from the Vatican, no?

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


Damon Fillman
Posts: 21
Joined: 2009-02-16
User is offlineOffline
Why is the same subject

Why is the same subject debated between theists and atheists?  There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God.  Immanual Kant knew this.  Why is it still debatable?  The only thing that has changed since Kant is that we now have more evidence to suggest there is no God rather than evidence to suggest there is.  Dawkin even brings this up.  I think what theists need to do is actually read the material they are questioning.  Mark Twain knew this as well, know your facts before you dissect.  The most looming question is why do we still have religious institutitions and leaders that wear funny hats?


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 16463
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Damon Fillman wrote:Why is

Damon Fillman wrote:

Why is the same subject debated between theists and atheists?  There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God.  Immanual Kant knew this.  Why is it still debatable?  The only thing that has changed since Kant is that we now have more evidence to suggest there is no God rather than evidence to suggest there is.  Dawkin even brings this up.  I think what theists need to do is actually read the material they are questioning.  Mark Twain knew this as well, know your facts before you dissect.  The most looming question is why do we still have religious institutitions and leaders that wear funny hats?

Quote:
Why is the same subject debated between theists and atheists?  There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God.

If you market the idea(all be it delusional and false) That any man claiming to having fucked Angelina Jolie, must not be lying because men exist and Angilina Jolie exists.

What you fail to take into account is Occaham's Razor and law of probability.

If someone makes a claim on any subject, even outside the issue of religion or the super natural, it is not automatically true by virtue of proclamation, and much so less by virtue of absence of prior data.

So if one wants to nit pic in saying, "There is a chance", is like saying that I can fart a Lamborghini out of my ass by virtue that Lamborghini's exist and so does my ass.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


Thomathy
Superfan
Thomathy's picture
Posts: 1861
Joined: 2007-08-20
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Why is the same

Quote:
Why is the same subject debated between theists and atheists?  There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God.

Ahem!  I'll take this up.

The Christian god posesses contradictory atributes.  Therefor the Christian god cannot and does not exist as defined.

Perhaps that's not the most rigorous example, but it is completely true.  I could go on and on with that one alone and an infinity of god concepts. 

To say that there is 'no way to prove or disprove the existence of god' is to first take god out of this universe (if it is not here that would be the only reason there couldn't be a way to prove its existence) and to secondly conflate each and every god concept as one and the same (a very serious error).  Don't do either of those things.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 16463
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Thomathy wrote:Quote:Why is

Thomathy wrote:

Quote:
Why is the same subject debated between theists and atheists?  There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God.

Ahem!  I'll take this up.

The Christian god posesses contradictory atributes.  Therefor the Christian god cannot and does not exist as defined.

Perhaps that's not the most rigorous example, but it is completely true.  I could go on and on with that one alone and an infinity of god concepts. 

To say that there is 'no way to prove or disprove the existence of god' is to first take god out of this universe (if it is not here that would be the only reason there couldn't be a way to prove its existence) and to secondly conflate each and every god concept as one and the same (a very serious error).  Don't do either of those things.

It is much more simple than that. I cant prove that I can fart a Lamborghini out of my ass, but how smart would you be in blindly buying such a claim merely because I uttered it?

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5939
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
There are a virtually

There are a virtually unlimited number of entities one could imagine which could be neither proved or disproved, especially if you 'give' them attributes that 'explain' why they can't be detected unambiguously by objective means, or 'extend' normal concepts of logic to 'explain' how they can have apparently contradictory characteristics. The more you seem to need to go beyond normal logic and observation to make some concept 'possible' the more actual strong positive evidence you need to produce to justify the idea.

So you need much more than the inability to disprove a concept before taking it seriously. So Russell's orbitting china teapot, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Yahweh, Allah, and the like, all have serious problems here.

Understanding the nature of reality is not constrained to stuff we can clearly prove or disprove. It is a matter of assessing the likelihood that the reality of some proposed entity is worth taking seriously, is there sufficient independent evidence pointing specifically to its existence, does it 'explain' some aspects of reality better than alternatives while not raising problems in other areas, and so on. Since IMHO no God concepts meet these criteria, and most, probably all, require assuming the existence of modes of existence and/or 'extensions' of logic that are essentially invented purely to argue for the reality of the idea, and no arguments are put forward other than the negative ones that point to things we can't currently explain by non-supernatural means.

To repeat, the ability to 'prove' is not relevant to the study of reality. The ability to disprove is useful in eliminating incoherent, contradictory, propositions. The only things which can be known to be absolutely true or can be strictly proved are definitional or deductive propositions, like 'a square has four sides', or math and logic arguments which basically prove that a conclusion is consistent with a set of propositions or assumptions.

Strictly speaking, nothing in Science (ie the systematic investigation of reality)  is 'proved' in an absolute sense, but science is immensely useful in building an ever more accurate and explanatory model of reality,which is ultimately probably all we can ever have.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology