Debating future topics already today: What if medicine is one day able to resurrect the dead?
In the past I listened quite a lot to Christian radio. (For entertainment purposes and to know what the other side is thinking.)
One interesting point made on one of those programs was that many topics we debate today were unthinkable 100 years ago. (Prenatal diagnostics, genetic engineering, gender adjusting surgery).
So I was wondering what the social debate would look like if in a 100 years from now medicine would be so advanced that it could literally raise the dead by being able to repair even worst brain damage?
Perhaps by bringing back the brain into a state that was recorded before death.
What if in a 100 years from now medicine would be able to fulfill the dream of eternal youth? It seems that such an advancement would render the theological promise of an eternal life in the afterlife superfluous.
I'm wondering whether under such a pressure of 'naturalistic miracles' religion would be doomed to perish, or whether the zealots would still preach on soap boxes against these new and out of their perspective certainly satanist practices of society.
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Who asks me inappropiate questions also has to live with the answers I may give.
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Well, to be honest, it's probably just a rhetorical question at best. If current neuroscience is essentially on the right track as far as how the brain works, resurrecting the dead will always be impossible in any meaningful way.
I know nobody likes to think of it that way, but basically, once the neural networks shut down at death, the information they contained is irrevocably lost. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Regardless of exactly how memories are stored, for instance, they are most certainly dependent on the brain being exactly how it is at any given moment. If you change a person's brain in any way, you change "who they are." Can you even begin to imagine the task of trying to "recalibrate" a hundred billion neurons?
In other words, even if we learn how to make a dead brain work again, (which is extremely implausible) the "resurrected" person wouldn't be the same person at all.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Worse, it doesn't take very long for the brain matter itself to disintegrate, making any resurrection of information completely impossible. To put it in computer terms: Even if there were still electrically stored information, the "hard drive" that it's stored on is disintegrating rapidly, corrupting the information beyond repair. This starts happening the moment blood stops pumping to the brain. Even a few seconds without oxygen enriched blood destroys brain cells beyond repair.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Of course it was thought to be a rethorical/philosphical question.
If I would know how to undo tremendous brain damage I wouldn't be posting on this forum but instead writing my acceptance speech for the Nobel Prize of medicine.
But if you could store how a brain was exactly short before death, it can't be absolutlely impossible to rebuild it again. Perhaps the theists would question whether this would still be the same person that died before.
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Who asks me inappropiate questions also has to live with the answers I may give.
This has been discussed a couple of times here, though often in terms of cloning. I'll let Hamby post links, I think he has a page of them somewhere for quick reference. I should really have one myself....
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
but if you have problems imagining the resurrection of a person you might just give your ideas on eternal youth
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Who asks me inappropiate questions also has to live with the answers I may give.
I wish I had saved the link you're talking about, Vastet, but I didn't. Personally, I don't know what theists would think of it, hypothetically speaking, of course. I don't know that any competent scientists would suppose that a resurrected brain would be the same person. All the evidence right now is pointing to an extremely fragile and complex system of brain, body, and environmental interaction that makes us "who we are." Tinker with any one of the three, and you literally change the person.
It's helpful for us to think of ourselves as discreet continuous individuals with consistent conscious existence, but it just isn't so. Our brains -- the computer which controls us* -- are dynamic, unlike man-made computers in which the hardware is constant. Each input of data literally changes the computer itself. We must also remember that to our brain, information is much, much more than that which we consciously perceive. Every chemical change in our body is "processed" by our body in the sense that it causes a literal change in our physical makeup. Our feeling of continuity is, in one very real sense, illusory. We are literally a new person every instant of our lives.
With this in mind, it's hard for me to even contemplate the thought that a brain which had undergone physical death and then been "restarted" would process data in any way which would appear continuous enough with the pre-death person to be called the same.
* Here, I am using the definition of computer espoused by Dennett, as simply a thing which processes information. There can hardly be any debate that our brain literally is a computer with this definition.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Humans do many clever things, like build nuclear weapons. But they rarely do wise things,like not build nuclear weapons. In this grossly overpopulated,resource depleated, and poluted world it would not be wise to create immortals. But if it can be done it probably will.
If medicine is ever able to raise the dead, you better keep your axes and shotguns handy.
It's a trap! Our thetans can't repel SPs of that magnitude!
If we ever 'conquer death', we will have to deal with the problems of lack of diversity, lack of innovation, over-population, accumulation/redistribution of wealth, and many more.
I see death as a necessary thing. By this I mean death in an abstract way: destruction, chaos, natural selection.
If no one dies, the only way to avoid over-population is to ensure that no one reproduces. If no one reproduces, there will no longer be any youth. As people/minds get old, they become entrenched in their ways. It takes a fresh perspective to introduce innovation. Kuhn's paradigm shifts are carried out by the mere fact that the younger generation simply waits until the older generation dies off.
If no one reproduces, there's no more evolution. No more evolution means no more diversity. What is to stop another society which does not embrace immortality from evolving to a point that they overtake us either biologically or culturally? It seems to me that naive immortality would lead to stagnation and eventual death through obsolescence.
If no one dies, and the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer, then our culture will stagnate into a rigid hierarchy which cannot change. What's to stop the poor and oppressed from trying to break down the society through revolution rather than less violent means?
Death is only bad if you're the one dying. Death allows resources to be reorganized and redistributed into potentially better and more innovative processes. It allows the obsolete to be recycled and gives an opportunity for new and fresh ideas to flourish.
If we were to ever conquer biological death, we would need to ensure a way that some other kind of 'death', such as cultural renewal, could take its place. The danger is stangnation and obsolescence.
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Some people "die" and are "revived" in the sense that they were on the brink of death but survived somehow. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
I hold to the idea that once something is dead, it dead, and probably for the best despite often tragic circumstances. But you know, I could be wrong.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
A society without death is quite an interesting idea, because such a society would need to be a very different society from the one we know today.
I wrote about eternal youth for a good reason and not just about eternal life.
(from the Grim Reapers memoirs )
That such a society has to limit reproduction to a point near to zero is what comes into mind first. But I think, that after 200 years without natural death, that such a society would have to get a new perspective on suicide. I tend to think that after people lived for 200 and more years that life would get so boring to them that they would want to end it themselves.
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Who asks me inappropiate questions also has to live with the answers I may give.
That is rather a good point Mike. You did not give us any specifics to play with but I would assume that you have some type of medical treatment in mind. If you have it once, then great, perhaps you have a new youthful body to live in but that body would eventually get old as well.
Looked at like that, I would tend to think that each of us might just reach a point where we decide not to submit for another round of whatever it is and just fade away naturally. I suppose that some people would only want one chance at it and others would go around several times. Eventually, with a large enough population, you will see a bell curve where there are very few people who have been around a dozen or more times.
Then too, how badly does anyone really want to see the future? Remember that nobody knows what it will look like. That being said, I think that it is safe enough to assume that parts of the future will be full of new and wondrous cool things but other parts will be full of incredible new ways for the world to suck. How many lifetimes do you think you want to have before the suck factor just becomes too big to deal with?
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OK, my previous speculation notwithstanding, I get the impression that you want to explore the meaning of being an individual. So let me posit a machine that can make an exact duplicate of you. The first objection to that comes from quantum mechanics. You really cannot duplicate information like that. The second objection is that such a machine would be useless as medical treatment because the copy would not live any longer than the original.
But as a rhetorical question, we can set all of that aside and just say that the machine exists. What are the consequences of such a machine?
So you have yourself duplicated. Now the question becomes which you is you? Let's say, just for grins, that the machine takes like half an hour to build the copy. So you step into it, get scanned and step out. Now you go into the waiting room until the copy is ready. Not so fast!
So you step into the machine, get scanned and step out. Only to find another you who is ten pages ahead of you in the book that you have been reading. Now do you see where this is getting interesting?
I suppose that the theists would have a huge fuss over the idea that a machine cannot make a new soul. Well, I am happy for them. But what if the copy murders the original? If we hold to the position of the theists that our laws are based on our religion, can the soulless copy be charged with murder? If we take the counter argument that the soul and the religious principals are not relevant, then just whom was murdered and who was the murderer?
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yes, it would question what a human being as an individual is.
I thought a bit more about how to resurrect the dead and came up with the following idea: In a distant future there could be neural networks that are so advanced that you could let them grow within a living brain. Those networks would at first do nothing else then exactly what the biological brain does and store exactly the same memory as the biological brain.
Those artificial neural networks would simply be a redundant system that could be activated after the death of the biological brain.
The question would really be if an identical brain would be set to work after the death of the first brain whether it would could as resurrection and whether the person would still be the same.
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Who asks me inappropiate questions also has to live with the answers I may give.
I wrote:
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
The ways in which religion could adapt to such a thing are beyond the scope of my imagination. And I have one hell of an imagination. Religion has survived direct and incontrovertable evidence of it's nonsense for centuries.
To add, I personally don't believe for a moment that death is completely conquerable. There will always be a way to die as long as there is life. I think eternal youth would simply extend lifetimes, it would not create true immortality.
I don't necessarily see all the problems Nature alludes to becoming actual, but there is a danger in it. Fortunately the question hasn't even arisen yet, and we're about to colonize Luna and Mars. So we've got much more in the way of space and resources than we do need or will need for generations. Even then, the choice to die will always exist. As will accidents and war and evolution in virus' and bacteria that will constantly challenge our medical knowledge.
Death cannot be killed.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Well, I don't really think so. However, people might well start taking more risks. It's never going to be possible to eliminate all death; after a few hundred years, people might start doing much, much riskier things in order to advance their beliefs or interests, with death as a risk they accept.