DON'T JINX IT LIKE THAT!!!

(But yeah, now that you mention it - it does sound a lot like the Phantom)

Thats nice and all, but imagine how much a little bit of lag will kill the games for you.

Let alone standard latency issues from how far you are from the servers. I just..don't see it working for anything but turn based games.

I have 6 meg per second internet, and it lags in games at times still online.

I couldn't imagine trying to play a SINGLE PLAYER game with lag happening at an inopportune moment. I'd probably be breaking things in my home in frustration.

Yeah. Without a guarantee of some standard of performance, it just wouldn't be viable for me.

I'll sign up to beta it. But I don't expect a lot really.

This doesn't introduce a 'new' problem that would be distinct to OnLive, though. Any multiplayer gaming service has to rely on best-effort ISP networks; Xbox Live is still fun, regardless of the data prioritizing done by ISPs and occassional spats of lag.

EDIT: Besides that, becoming a portal partner with an ISP wouldn't be a real challenge, so long as they offer said ISP a large enough slice of their pie.

I'm going to go ahead and predict Fail. Not Epic Fail, but Fail. I may be wrong, but I have yet to make a prediction that doesn't come true in the gaming industry. And yes, my ego in this area grows every time I make one and see it come true.

Both Sony and Microsoft have made and continue to make too many advancements in online networks for a new player to come in and win the day unless they accomplish something truly radical in the process. I'm not seeing any indication of such being offered. Whereas the installed and extreme competition between these two companies effectively acts like a dynamo of innovation and advancement.

Even PC games have been splattered by the most recent generation of consoles. The networking offered just blasts current PC capabilities out of the water. There is too much convenience in having a friend list that works laterally through every game on a system. Not to mention the chat options, trophies/achievement awards, online stores, patches, etc.

And, of course, the next generation is coming fairly soon. Hopefully MS will change their self defeating Sega strategy and actually wait more than 3-4 years between consoles this time. Sony has the right idea with a 10 year window. Nintendo has made such a cheap and invasive console that they're probably the only ones who could release a new box in the next 2 years without fucking themselves. And they might need to. It depends on how well the Wii will continue to stand once the uber games are launching in the next couple of years (more GTA, FF, GOW, MGS, Halo, etc). Games the Wii simply doesn't have the power to run.

Definately. Ever since the original PlayStation, Sony has been putting a lot of effort into merging standalone media devices with gaming consoles. Sega was technically the first big company to do it, but Sega was the first to do a lot of things, and it didn't get them anywhere. Microsoft and Nintendo have seen just how successful a strategy that has been, and have both made their own moves in the same direction. MS has completely self owned in this particular category, but Nintendo has made some good moves. Mostly by staying as far away from it as they possibly can, and redefining their entire console strategy from the ground up.

Yeah, I can imagine that since a lot of people will buy this, then the lag will become a factor, and I guess it would depend on your internet connection too.

I'm no computer expert, but if all the calculations are done by the server and lots of people play them....

Then there's probably going to be subscribtion fees [like x-box live] and so forth.

Um. No.

No, it has not.

This is a concept called 'cloud computing', and it has never been tried in an application like this before (of course, this is also why it may very well flop. We'll have to see).

Uh. Steam is just a community portal and online store.

This is, effectively, a virtual console. You purchase the service via a web browser (yes, I imagine it will be subscription-based), and then enjoy never having to upgrade any of your hardware ever again because the software is being run off of their hardware.

It's nothing like Steam at all. If it was, I wouldn't have gotten very excited.

The 'hardcore FPSers' number in the, at best, low hundreds. It's a pretty niche scene.

The vast majority of gamers (like, uh, myself) quite readily welcome any breaks we can get on having to constantly upgrade our hardware (as much as I adore dropping $500.00 every year on a new card, and then well over $1000.00 every second year for an upgrade of my processor, ram and motherboard).

If the product works, it'll explode, and it'll spawn a whole new cloud computing scene.

...I don't think you understand: the only thing being fed to your computer is a video stream. All of the software processing is done remotely. So, yes, they could run an MMO just as well as they could run anything.

There's nothing 'magic' about it (and that's why best effort service was brought-up earlier): you're recieving a video stream of the game, which is being run on a remote server. That's all. It's as mystical as watching a live news broadcast.

The only question is this: can they stream that sucker to you while maintaining the perception of the game being run locally? If they can set-up a portal partner with a service provider, I'd actually bet that yes, they can.

We'll see, though. Have fun with the beta.

lolwut

Yeah, sucks to be one of the wealthiest people on the planet. And you're shown to be incorrect all of the time, dude.

One word:

DotA

Yeah, you keep making an idiot of yourself.

Look who's talking. Getting yourself owned left right and centre.  

One word: WOW.

Alright, just so we're clear, according to you:

 - Zero big developers care about user-generated content

 - Less than 1% of all gamers give a rat's ass about user-generated content.

...Right?

So, in '96, three guys named John Cook, Robin Walker and Ian Caughley built a mod for id Software's Quake which they called 'Team Fortress'. This user created content, which apparently nobody gave two shits about, took-off like a weasel chugging Red Bull; Team Fortress spin-offs appeared in nearly every multiplayer FPS at the time, including Unreal Tournament and - more importantly - Half-Life.

The Half-Life variant of the mod became so popular (even surpassing that of the original QWTF) that in '99 Valve decided to develop their own version, 'Team Fortress Classic' (with the assistance of John Cook and Robin Walker), which they bundled with the vanilla game and and used to generate new sales volume from an (awesome) aging title.

For almost all of Team Fortress Classic's history, it was the most played online game next to Counter-Strike, period.

Finally, in 2007, Valve drops the Orange Box -  packaged with Team Fortress 2, Half-Life 2, Half-Life 2: Episode 1, Half-Life 2: Episode 2 and Portal. Portal deserves mention as a game inspired by user-created content for Half-Life 2 (...and also deserves mention because, well, it fucking rocks). Team Fortress 2, while no longer simply a user-made mod, obviously drew inspiration from it's predecessor and drew plenty of it's dough from the existing fanbase.

So, it looks like just maybe Valve Corporation cares about user-created content (and hey, why not? It's made a killing for them).

We're not done, though. In 2003 a Warcraft III map creator only known by his alias, Eul, created a custom scenario for the game (using strictly the game's in-box map editor) called 'Defense of the Ancients'. While Eul's first incarnation of the map became popular enough to lead a cult following, it was not until Steve Feak took-on the concept and developed 'Defense of the Ancients: AllStars' that it really took off.

DotA is now played more often han the vanilla game is. Is has spawned an entire new generation of real-time strategy games; Dawn of War and Company of Heroes from Relic Entertainment both owe tremendous inspiration to DotA, and Gas Powered Games (brainchild of Total Annihiltion developer Chris Taylor) is currently developing Demigod in concert with Stardock Corporation - a game that, from the ground up, is built to play like DotA.

The major league gaming tournaments (ESWC, M/SWCG, and WCGA) all include DotA by popular demand and it is played in most asian countries right now by more players than play Counter-Strike.

Now, Blizzard hasn't been able to make any direct sales from DotA, but they have been able to hugely expand their client base - as well as learn about what players like to see - because of it. Starcraft II would've been a smash hit anyway, but DotA compounds this. Blizzard is just going to slay the stats when their next title hits the shelves.

So, it looks like... uh, well, Electronic Arts, GPG, Stardock, Blizzard and most of asia, at the very least, care about user-generated content.

Am I done now?

Well, not quite.

Falcon 4.0 was released in '98 by MicroProse. It was one of the most horrendous debaucheries ever to be put in a box and sold to a consumer - and, at the same time, one of the most ambitious and realistic flight simulators ever to have been released. Thankfully, MicroProse built the game to be modular and, thereby, edit-friendly. A dedicated following of armchair aces not only squashed many of the game's worst bugs and made it stable, but over the years have added jaw-dropping eye-candy to it.

These days, the RedViper and FreeFalcon tinker around with the game so much that it remains one of the most modern-looking and playable sims on the markt.

MicroProse is no longer with us, but they heavily reaped the benefits of a dedicated modder base while they were around. Falcon 4.0 did not flop, despite it's atrocious launch, because it was so hastily and thoroughly patched-up into pristine condition and many buyers knew in advance that they could count on a reliable and gorgeous product so long as they had an internet connection to D/L user-created content.

Or how about Ultima Online? Arguably the first successful subscription-based MMORPG, Ultima Online was released by Origin in '97. It paved the way for the MMORPG genre as we know it today, and one of it's primary premises was/is - you guessed it - user-created content. You make your character, you craft weapons and other items for both personal use and marketing to other players, you can build a house, form a guild... does all of this sound a bit familiar?

It's the foundational trope for every contemporary MMORPG!

An entire genre of games and a very generous portion of the gaming market revolves around user-generated content. It's not even an 'optional' thing in an MMORPG - it's the whole point of playing the game.

And if we back-out from specific games and glance over at consoles for a moment... what's that on your console dashboard? You've got an avatar, you've got a list of songs you can play in favor of the game soundtrack, you've got wallpaper you picked-out... man, it's almost like the console developers have seen that users enjoy blending some personal content in with their gaming experience.

Mostly. Blizzard being an exception to the rule.

Stop you right there with your putting words in my mouth. I never said that NOBODY gave two shits about anything. I said the vast majority of gamers don't care about user generated content. On the order of less than 1%. Less than 1% of a million people is still close to 10,000. Taking an estimation of a billion gamers on Earth would make that 1% about a million people. More than enough to make some money, but nowhere near enough to make a killing.

It's not user generated when the people work for your company. It's company generated. And it wasn't their version that was released, it was Valve's own version. Self owned twice in three paragraphs.

Inspired by user generated content does not equal user generated content. I asked you to show me the riches companies have made because of user generated content. So far you've got nothing but an indirect influence.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ still mia.....

Not making the developer a lick of $$$$$$$$

Aha, finally. There is no $$. Big surprise. Oh wait...

But that's Blizzard. This started with Valve, so the invitation is still open.

Bullshit. Starcraft will sell on its own merits and Blizzards standards. DotA will have insignificant impact.

EA cares about user-generated content? Rofl. Idiot. Where's all the user generated maps and cars in Burnout? All the arena's in their sports games? Should I go on? 99% of EA's games (and they have a lot of games) have very little or absolutely NO user generated content. Yeah, they sure care. Lots and lots.

Blizzard I'll give you, though only because they've established it as part of the way they do business. Removing a component of something you've offered since your inception never goes down well. Though on the other hand, theres no evidence that people would abandon them en masse if they dropped it either.

GPG and Stardock don't qualify as "big".

Asia isn't a company, let alone a big one.

So again, you fail.

Oh goody, more of your stupidity.

So now you're trying to justify the shameful practice of releasing games before they're done in the guise of users fixing a companies broken idea so the company can make money for doing nothing? This is getting truly sad.

That's not user generated content moron. That's been around since the first paper RPG's. Since the first RP of any kind. It's the whole point of putting RP in the fucking acronym. Epic fail.

Bullshit. ROLEPLAYING is the foundation for EVERY MMORPG. User generated content doesn't exist in them. Not in Runescape, not in Ultima Online, not in World of Warcraft, not in Final Fantasy XI. None of them.

Picking a hairstyle and picture from a list does not equal user generated content. It equals picking a hairstyle and picture from a list.

And your argument was self owned as it was being typed. Convenience at its finest. The only portions of the gaming industry that even notices user generated content on a day to day basis is RTS, FPS, and Simulation. The rest ignores it en masse. 

Oh yeah, that's user generated all right. Picking an avatar off a list is user generated. Downloading songs onto your system is user generated. Picking a picture is user generated.

/sarcasm

No lube though.

All the material I've seen regarding this particular focus of the conversation suggested or straight out claimed that it was mostly or entirely new. Could you perhaps give me a source, since Kevin is unable or unwilling to?

I'll give you that EA is willing to leech off of anyone and everyone by any means necessary, though I don't think that means they have an actual interest in user generated content. More reminds me of Nintendo trying to sue people way back when for putting out games for the NES without a license.

An internal editor means that content is internal. By definition, it is not user generated.

Internal editors are not providers of user generated content.

Just because you think picking a few options is user generated content does not make it so.

Since you want to bring outside observers into the conversation; my coworkers and colleagues have had a fun time laughing at your continued stupidity. Not one person has agreed with your ridiculous positions. And I could care less what people are saying on Skype.

No problem. Glad it helped create some healthy conversation 

Well, okay.

I think the first thing to do would be to recognize that all content is going to rest on a spectrum, from things that I have much more creative influence over to things that I have very little or no creative influence over. We might then also want to recognize that 'modding' & editing in gaming is hardly exclusive to video gaming.

Warhammer 40K is actually an excellent showcase for the spectrum I'm talking about. On the extreme end of the user-generated content, there are conversions; models that have been either dramatically altered or entirely built from scratch by a player (typically still using different resin pieces released by Games Workshop):

...Then, as you start approaching the other end of the spectrum, you get into the more basic elements of user-made content: painting schemes, army lists, etc. Games Workshop sells you the tools to make an army (paint, resin sprues, glue, etc); actually making models and putting together an army is up to the user.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, away from the creative side, you get into the game's rules architecture and thematic flavor. If you're playing 40K, you'll be playing by the same rules as any other player - regardless of what their army looks like. You're also playing within the 40K universe that Games Workshop created.

We talked about Magic: the Gathering in another thread, and I think it makes another good example. Wizards of the Coast just prints the cards and sells them to you; making a deck is up to you (they also sell pre-constructed thematic decks, but that's an optional element). Again, the user takes the tools and builds something unique with them - their own personal deck.

D&D (and most roleplaying games... but we'll stick with D&D for now, given it's notoriety and one other special thing I'll bring-up in a moment) is yet another good example; players take the basic rules and generate their own unique character, within given guidelines. I think an important thing to note was that it wasn't always this way at all; the first incarnations of pen & paper roleplaying games involved completely pre-generated characters that players had very little creative influence over their characters - as the game evolved it allowed players greater and greater creative influence over their characters as players demanded it.

More interestingly, D20 - the rules architecture D&D uses - has been used as a tool to create all kinds of other content!

Now, Wizards published a few of the D20 products themselves (most notably, above, D20 Modern and Star Wars), but the tools can and are being used by anyone with the desire to make their own homebrew game without having to go through the trouble of building their own rules architecture from scratch (and, as an added bonus, their new game uses an already established rules standard, so it will already have an automatic appeal to players who like D20).

So, approach video gaming with the same standard. On the really extreme end of the creative spectrum there are mods like, say, Team Fortress classic; the players create their own models using software like 3DSMax, Milkshape or Blender and import them into the game's architecture (typically doing so by using modding tools released by the developer - though in some cases the game's architecture is so open-ended out of the box that tools aren't necessary. Hi, Total Annihilation!) and play around with the stats in the game to get the desired result (though the overall rules architecture hasn't changed, and things like the game's engine obviously remain the same).

As we approach the other end of the spectrum we get things like DotA and other customized maps, which still play significantly differently from the regular game but do not use any external tools; only those which the developer has provided. I am effectively making my own units in Warcraft III when I change their stats around, even if I'm not importing my own sprites.

Further along still, there's custom maps, customizable characters and inventory, etc. There's arguably even 'custom' ways of playing a game (think of tropes like 'Zergling rushing' or 'PeeWee spamming' or 'Lurker Dropping'); I haven't made the maptiles, but I have used them to make the map. I haven't made the hair, eyes, nose, etc, but I definately did use them to make a unique face.

I mean, Lego Corporation makes the Lego blocks. Does that mean it's accurate to characterize every Lego creation as something Lego Corporation made? Or does the user deserve a fair portion of the credit?

Even Electronic Arts agrees with this definition.

But, whatever. It's not like you're going to admit that you're wrong anyway.

Continue WTF PWNIGN!@!!!! me if yo want. I think I'm finished with this topic until OnLive actually launches.

The only reason I bought warcraft 3 was because of user-generated content. The game itself sucked. I hated the "hero" things, it made 100x more micromanagement over one unit and less tactical organization.

I only ever played it online with "use map settings" and things that other people made.  I expected there to be as much support as in starcraft, and I wasn't dissapointed.

I don't know enough about Spore to make a comment on it, and I don't feel like looking into it at the moment.

Maps however are the perfect example of user generated content. You aren't just picking an item out of a list, you're choosing where and how it is applied. You are changing the focus of strategy and tactics, which are the biggest focus of the game. You are manipulating the values of participants and the terrain. You can even add objects that didn't exist in the original game, if you happen to know what you're doing. You can even create your own story to go with the maps.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I'll try again. From what I can determine:

Team Fortress was released.

Valve hires people who released Team Fortress.

Team Fortress is modified and released as a new product easily distinguishable from the original.

True or false? Preferrably with a link.

I see a significant dividing line between simply fiddling with appearences(like making a character look like someone specific), and actually altering the gameplay and mechanics of a game(by generating the very field the game is played on). Anything after that line qualifies as User Generated or Created Content. Anything before it qualifies as User Defined or Selected Content.

Edit to add something that I shouldn't have left out.

User defined/selected content has become a staple of the industry. It has a significant impact on sales. People like to make a hockey player or a wrestler that looks like them. Not having the option will mean you get slammed by critics and gamers everywhere.

User generated/created content is an entirely different situation. The vast majority of gamers are casual. These people play a game anywhere between once or twice a day to once or twice a year. They have neither the time nor the inclination to create their own shit to play around with. It takes way too long and the results can depend on a number of different things; from capability to determination. Having this option will increase your likelyhood of gaining a hardcore audience, but the casuals won't even notice, let alone care.