Dr. Brad Harrub, Young earth creationist in St. Louis
Offline I live in St. Louis, MO. A few months ago a friend of mine told me about a seminar being sponsored by a local church in St. Peter's, which is a city northwest of St. Louis. The seminar is called "Truth about Origins" and features a Dr. Brad Harrub, who is a young earth creationist.
The seminar runs three days, and the topics are:
1. Was Darwin Wrong?
2. Evolutionary Hoaxes
3. Atheism's Attack on America
Last night was the first seminar, and I went just because I thought it would be highly entertaining. I ended up taking 8 pages (in a small notebook) of notes. He is pretty much a caricature of creationists. He opened by telling this story (which I am paraphrasing):
"It is happening in more and more colleges and schools across the country. On the first day of a biology class, a professor walks into a full classroom, holding two books. The professor holds aloft the first book - a textbook on biology - and says, "This is the book that you'll be reading and understanding this semester". He then lets his arm drop, and holds aloft the second book - it is a Bible. They [the professors] often wait a moment for smiles. Then they say, "If, by the end of the semester, you think that this book is the truth, you will fail this class". The professor then throws the Bible into the trash."
Where the heck did this story come from? I don't want to just say that he invented it or heard it through the grapevine, but I've never heard of anything like this happening and of course could find zero evidence supporting it.
and then went on to say that the big bang violates the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics, that Darwin was a racist, that adaptation is not a mechanism for change, some stuff on rolling dice and chance, etc etc etc... Basically the same old creationist arguments. I am refuting them all eventually at my blog (for those interested, it's www.ziztur.com) but WOW! I could not believe he could cram that much stuff into one seminar.
Has anyone else here ever heard of this guy or attended any of his seminars? Conversely, if anyone here lives near St. Peter's, you should go to the ones tonight and tomorrow morning! I got to ask a few questions at the end of the seminar, which was great because then members of the church approached me afterward to tell me that my questions were great.
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
www.ziztur.com
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That story does seem made up but I've known some crazy professors before. I doubt anyone would risk out right throwing the bible in the garbage (I know they have great job secrurity but they can still be fired), which is why I think its fake. At any rate its definately not happening everywhere and is at best an isolated insident or the same person doing it year after year to every class.
I don't actually think it would be all the bad on an idea to fail people claiming that the bible is the truth (he said 'the truth' that goes further than saying someone like 'contains truth' or 'has truth in it'). Actually I don't see how creationists ever even get into real univeristies.
How do young-earth creationist become doctors? What is he a doctor of anyway?
Same I became a doctor. First you make up an institution like "The Academy for the Betterment of Stosis (or jesus, your choice), then you say you have a PhD in something-er-other like a "PhD of Stosinomics", then if anyone asks you for some reason misplaced your thesis or something like that.
In honour of becoming a doctor just now I'm making everyone who posts in this thread graduates from the Academy for the Betterment of Stosis. Now we're all doctors, yay! And guess what it probably has a lot more credibility than the bible colleges young earth creationist go to.
This doctor of divinity isn't worth wasting time on. He is clearly a pious liar. Asking questions is a waste of time unless you are prepared to take over the discussion period which is a fun thing to do but it takes some experience at meetings.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Well, we went to the second seminar last night. I took 12 pages of notes but at some point stopped taking them because he went on a tirade about how amazing it is that the earth is finely tuned for life on it - spending lots of time explaining in great, vast detail exactly what was fine tuned about it (yawn..!)
Afterward, we (As in the group of about 10 atheists there and a few of the church members) asked him questions for like an hour.
He had mentioned that one of the "proofs" for god was the morality argument (also the teological and cosmological, which has been debunked like a million times over) and said that his gods morality was unchanging. I got up and informed him that the whole of religions and christian history testifies to the fact that religious morality changes with time, and that it's painfully obvious that since Christians once thought certain things were moral and now they aren't, etc that changes do occur.
He asked for an example and I brought up the stoning of blasphemers and said that I was super glad that no one here still believed stoning blasphemers was the morally right thing to do. The congregation laughed at that. So we eventually teased out of him (I.E. got him to admit outright) that he WOULD IN FACT stone me to death for blaspheming under the right circumstances. We then told him that this was why we thought his religion was immoral because he saw nothing wrong with stoning me to death so long as his god told him to.
I don't think it made any difference but maybe we got some people to think about that. Probably not.
Afterward we went up to talk to him and I said, "Okay, so you'd really stone me to death?" and he said yes, if god told him to do so.
Scary. So I got my picture taken with him for my blog. I was originally thinking to put a caption under it saying, "Here I am standing next to the guy who would stone me to death if his god told him to do so" but when I asked for a picture he sort of smiled sheepishly and said, "are you going to put a mean caption under it?" (very perceptive, actually...) So I told him Yes, yes I am.
I gave in and said Okay, I give in, I won't give our picture a mean caption. So he let me take my picture with him, LOL.
We talked to him for about half an hour afterward and he is actually a nice guy aside from the creationist stuff. He answered our questions honestly and then had some decent ones for us. He accepted my explanation as to why atheism is NOT a religion or a belief. He asked us this:
"okay so I am asking this in all seriousness. How do you guys find hope and meaning in your life? I am not trying to be mean, I am honestly curious" So we explained. We also explained what ethical humanism entails.
I am against everything he stands for, but I like engaging with creationists and he and I could probably talk to each other for months straight without running out of things to say. In person he is quite thoughtful and nice, and he does actually know a lot about science, even if he uses his knowledge helter-skelter to prove his worldview.
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
www.ziztur.com
Your interaction with the "enemy" reminds me of some of my own experiences with political opponents. I used to be very politically active in the local Libertarian Party ( don't laugh ! ) and even after strenuously debating with my exact political opposites I sometimes felt that, aside from our specific differences, this was a very pleasant fellow or lady to be around. We sometimes stayed awhile just to chit chat with each other. Strange, hunh ?
The "Atheism's Attack on America" (alliteration!) seminar should be quite interesting.
The same place most creationist 'facts' or anecdotes come from: right from his own ass crack.
I mean, that story is just plain dismissable. School newspapers, and subsequently real newspapers, would be all over that kind of incident and the professor in question woul likely be fired. Look at wht happened with PZ Meyers when he pulled that little stunt with the cracker, for Pete's sake.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Bravo! Sounds like you made some excellent points. If the people laughed, then I'm sure you actually did get some of them to think. Good job!
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Hopefully he'll give you pleanty of time to ask questions after the third seminar which should be entertaining. Among all the other questions you have, be sure and grill him over the origins of the nation.
btw, I'm really just posting for the PhD of Stosinomics.
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
You can call me Dr. Spike. I'll be having a lecture at MSU next week on how to spot fake doctors if any one is interested.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Actually, dude has a degree in biology and a doctoral degree in anatomy and neurobiology from the university of tennessee.
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
www.ziztur.com
Did you go to the "Atheism's Attack on America" session?
I did! It was... .ahem.. enlightening to hear all of the evil things "atheists" are doing, like:
1. having gender neutral bathrooms in school districts all over California where little boys and girls go potty AT. THE. SAME. TIME.
(no, I am not joking, he really said this was an example of atheism's attack on America)
2. There used to be Bible verses on plaques at the grand canyon and we had them removed and replaced with scientifically neutral plaques
3. Bibles are banned from school libraries
4. some child rapist is walking the streets because a judged "merely uttered a phrase from the bible before sentancing him"
5. We're wring books! and they are bestsellers! ZOMG
etc.
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
www.ziztur.com
My dorm last year had co-ed bathroom and showers. Also, my room mate was Satan.
Oh no! He's discovered our secret plan! Which is designed to accomplish...um...
Yes, clearly a fatal blow to Christianity.
They are?
Really? Source?
Damn! It's bad enough that the atheists learned how to read! When did they learn how to write?!
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
Wait, they actually stopped that stupidity that was going on there a year or two ago? Or has this guy not been paying attention?
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I tried to find a source on Bibles being banned from schools, and my only credible sources say that they are most emphatically NOT. He claimed that the Bible is banned while books on the occult or witchcraft aren't - It's actually the opposite way around at some schools, unless he is talking about Harry Potter being occult.
The Bible verse/child rapist thing actually IS true. Sort of:
http://altlaw.org/v1/cases/1133422
Specifically, Dr. Harrub claimed something like this:
James Arnette, who pled guilty to repeatedly raping an 8 year old girl, is now walking the streets free because his judge quoted this Bible verse during the sentencing: "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me. But, whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
From reading the actual court documents, it appears that she did say this, and that it was questioned and his sentence was overturned then his sentence was UPHELD. But correct me if I am wrong.
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
www.ziztur.com
of course a child rapist should never go free for such a pettyfogging reason, nor should his sentence be mitigated in the slightest, but it was very bad judgment on the judge's part (no pun intended), and, in my opinion, in VERY bad taste, since it was no doubt another attempt by a religious reactionary demagogue with an unfortunate amount of administrative power to exploit a very emotional, tragic, and publicized situation to effect an ideological coup. this kind of shit constantly happens in the bible belt and i'm sick of it.
not only that but--surprise, surprise--the verse is taken completely out of context. jesus is here using children as a metaphor for his faithful followers (at that time exclusively adults, as far as we can gather from the canonical gospels), and basically threatening people who molest them or refuse them hospitality.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Also I'd like to note that said rapist did NOT go free (and he shoudn't!) - this went to the supreme court and the judge upheld the Bible-thumping judge's sentance.
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
www.ziztur.com