Christian Survivalist thinks Atheists make bad neighbors?
Offline This is a post that an atheist added on a survivalist website survivalblog.com. The host James Rawles believes that only a few atheists are actually moral and the vast majority can't be trusted in a survival situation. He then cherry picks statistics to support his irrational religious choice (reformed Christian calvinism).
Letter Re: Atheism and Choosing Your Neighborhood
James:
I am a new reader to SurvivalBlog and a big fan of "Patriots"
Just because I don't believe in a god does not mean I am going to kill/steal/rape in a TEOTWAWKI situation. It hurts me when I read such generalizations. Just because I'm an atheist, I am not going to harm you. I believe in the rule of law and mutual respect. I don't decide not to kill or steal because I fear a punishment from god. I choose not to do these things because they are wrong, I don't need a god or bible to tell me they are wrong.
Atheists are not barbarians, without morals. I help my neighbors, I work hard and believe in self reliance and preparedness. I am trustworthy and respectful. I have encountered many so called "God fearing" believers who I cannot say the same for. God may not be a driving force in my life, but I still know the difference between right and wrong. I will not try to convert you, I am not one of those loud atheists who will try to tell you how wrong you are. I believe in everyone's right to believe what they may, and I ask all to give me the same courtesy.
Religion and morals are not the same thing. I don't need to believe in a supreme power to have morals and know what is right and wrong. I just wanted to clear up these misconceptions. I really hope you post this. Thank you for your work, SurvivalBlog is a great knowledge source, - J. in Michigan
JWR Replies: The comment in my Precepts page that you mentioned is not a question of individuals, because there are indeed exceptional individuals, and I'm confident that you are one of them. Rather, this is a question of averages. On average, people that have the moral underpinning of the Judeo-Christian religious ethic are less likely to commit property crimes than those that don't, and statistics bear this out. For example, look at the "Property"crime rates for particular counties in California (The City and County of San Francisco, for example, has one of the lowest church attendance rates in the country). Compare that to the more religious counties of North Dakota (a "Bible Belt" state). This map is quite an interesting starting place. Sorry, but facts are facts. Property crime rates are generally higher in communities with a low ratio of church attendance. My choice to live in a tight-knit religious community is not a reflection on you as an individual. It is just a conscious choice, based upon statistical correlation and my strong conviction as a Christian, to do so. FWIW, please consider that a religious community is also the safest place for you--an atheist with morals--to live, too.
If I hypothetically had to live in New York or New Jersey, then I'd probably pick a small town with a predominance of Christians or Orthodox Jews for neighbors.
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Offline I've been to almost all of them, and plenty more Countries in Europe.
They are light years ahead of us, and if I had the chance to live in any Scandinavian or European Country, as opposed to the U.S., I'd do it in a heartbeat.
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Offline Oh Christian survivalists. Who even knew that was a demographic?
Anyway, welcome to the boards, princess.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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Offline JWR wasn't cherry picking anything, he was simply making things up. christians make up about 74% of the overall prison population of this country's prison population while atheists make up about 2%. christians love to lie for their jeebus.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
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Offline Oh Christian survivalists. Who even knew that was a demographic?
You would think they would welcome death... 
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Offline I've done two tours in Iraq in command positions.
Atheist = Level head.
Religious = Skittish.
Unqualified, subjective and incorrect statistical analysis on weird selective demographics is rubbish.
I see the unpredictable fear in the eyes and actions of soldiers under duress and I am concerned when I must serve with religious soldiers.
Religious soldiers are more likely to be less intelligent, racist, righteously violent, and motivated by fear and supernatural justice.
These are generalizations that I have experienced to be true.
You can analyse my comments as much as you wish (I know all of the associated issues, and I have left a lot unsaid), all I am saying is that this experienced veteran commander is pro-atheist and anti-religious as far as what constitutes an ideal soldier / survivor.
A brief study in military history will show the success of the atheist on the battlefield / in the survival situation, from command, tactics, and strategy, to individual issues of temperament and psychological resilience.
Who would want to finish what they have said with the same thing everytime?
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Offline A brief study in military history will show the success of the atheist on the battlefield / in the survival situation, from command, tactics, and strategy, to individual issues of temperament and psychological resilience.
I doubt much of military history will tell you who the atheist were among the battlefield.
And hum, and I'm assuming you like you're rose tinted glasses?
Our fat bastard of a headquarters commander, was an atheist, and a selfish son of a bitch, who rationally worked around our chow system of feeding the junior marines first to insure they were fed, by hording on to several bowls of bacon to insure the officers had their share at the end, even if the last few enlisted men didn't get any. He may of been a highly rational individual, he just didn't garner much respect.
In conclusion, atheist military officers are selfish sons of bitches, who care nothing at all but for themselves, and this coming from a veteran whose worked quite closely with various men of the rank and file. They're not worthy of any respect.
We all can generalize can't we?
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Offline I would like to tell you a little bit about my atheist neighbors;
When they moved in 12 years ago both mom and dad were very nice,they have a son with CF.My daughters went out of their way to set other children straight who felt the need to pick on him because of his wheel-chair.We had cook-outs and watched super bowls together,generally had a good time together.
One day I get a call from my wife,says our "friends"want to buy part of our property so they can extend their drive-way.I very politely told them no,I had plans and I needed all my land.Two weeks later we receive a summons to appear in court,somehow our house needs to be condemned because it is falling apart.We go to court,and surprise our "friends"are waiting for us,they proceed to tell the judge our house is falling apart and he needs to do something about it.
To make a long story short,since I refused to sell them my land my kids have been called every swear word imaginable,my wife and I were in and out of court for almost a year until the judge finally warned them they would be thrown in jail if he ever saw them again.We also found out that when my kids were very young pops took pictures of them while they were in bathing suits and posted them online.
I know all atheists are not like this,some of my best friends are atheists,this is just an example.
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Offline I am a Christian,I served for ten years as a Navy Seal and I really don't appreciate your description of religious soldiers.You evidently had some people serving with you that had no business serving in that kind of situation.Many of my team members were Christians and were excellent in combat.Some people are made for that environment,some aren't.I'm sure if you bothered looking beyond believers you would have found just as many atheists with the same "faults".
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Offline But you're not going to find that sort of warmth when you travel to Sweden, where a sense of independence and individuality have long been fostered, rather than community dependence, and nurturing.
Have you ever been to Sweden?
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
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Offline I know all atheists are not like this, some of my best friends are atheists,this is just an example.
Isn't it like a characterization of christian soldiers based on the personal experience of one poster?
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
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Offline I am a Christian,I served for ten years as a Navy Seal and I really don't appreciate your description of religious soldiers.You evidently had some people serving with you that had no business serving in that kind of situation.Many of my team members were Christians and were excellent in combat.Some people are made for that environment,some aren't.I'm sure if you bothered looking beyond believers you would have found just as many atheists with the same "faults".
I'm more impressed with your status as a former SEAL team member. I admire anyone who can endure what it takes to become one and I couldn't care less what their religious affiliations is. One of my favorite non-fiction reads is an account by a Viet Nam era SEAL named Michael J. Walsh. He is one of the shortest SEAL team members ever to graduate through training, a combat veteran, a total bad-ass and he's a Christian and if I ever had the chance to meet him I would be the first one to shake his hand. The fact that I'm an atheist does not diminish my respect for him in the slightest.
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Our fat bastard of a headquarters commander, was an atheist, and a selfish son of a bitch, who rationally worked around our chow system of feeding the junior marines first to insure they were fed, by hording on to several bowls of bacon to insure the officers had their share at the end, even if the last few enlisted men didn't get any. He may of been a highly rational individual, he just didn't garner much respect.
In conclusion, atheist military officers are selfish sons of bitches, who care nothing at all but for themselves, and this coming from a veteran whose worked quite closely with various men of the rank and file. They're not worthy of any respect.
We all can generalize can't we?
Y'know, I am not quite sure where you are going with this but if I take it as tongue in cheek, then I will agree with you. You commander was not a very nice guy towards his enlisted. However, he is both a bastard and an atheist. He is not a bastard because he is an atheist.
The way that I see this is that there is a basically racist position in thinking that atheists and theists simply cannot get along. The fact is that I have traveled through probably a quarter of the states of the union and I have come to learn that there are good people everywhere you go. I really do not care what you are, I care who you are. If you are a basically decent person who wants to see good things happen for your community, then you are good to go in my book.
Saying that there is a moral problem with some individual because he is an atheist is no different from saying that black men want to rape white women or saying that all Jews are cheap.
If someone familiar with the WWJD? movement were to encounter only these individual Christians they would quickly come to the conclusion that Jesus himself must have been a world class jerk.
Everyone's experiences are different and unique. I speak only for myself. I am drawing from my years of work history spent as both a former Christian and now as a religious apostate.
Interesting take there. The last Christian group that I was with was the Landmark Baptists. They claim to be Christian but from what I can tell, that is “in name only”. They (at least the group that I was in) have absolutely no concept of WWJD. They have fully surrendered to the tyranny of what they call faith. They live their lives based not on WWJD but rather on “what would pastor say?”.
Actually, we were not even allowed to read the bible. It is much too complicated for mere sinful humans to ever understand, yet pastor is a special superhuman being who is qualified to dip in and let us know what we are allowed to think.
OK, that is quite enough of that rant for the time being.
As far as the crime stats go, I will refer anyone to my idea above that calling atheists anything as a group is inherently racist.
My choice to live in a tight-knit religious community is not a reflection on you as an individual. It is just a conscious choice, based upon statistical correlation and my strong conviction as a Christian, to do so. FWIW, please consider that a religious community is also the safest place for you--an atheist with morals--to live, too.
My reply (if I should post there) would be along these lines:
Well, I am glad to hear that you would be willing to welcome atheists into you post-apocalyptic village. For that, I would consider you to be a better man than many Christians whom I have met. Should TEOTWAWKI actually come to pass, I have no intention of mentioning my atheism to the guards at the village gate. However, I will tell you that I am well grounded in science and engineering. I also believe in the value of a good day of solid work.
When we are ready to raise a barn, my (currently) 46 year old back may not be quite as good as the young men of your village but I will give what I can. One of the things that I can give you, apart from my aging back, is that I will do the work before hand to make sure that our barn will stand for a hundred years.
If you give me that much of a chance, then five years after the brown stuff hits the fan, (I am assuming that they do not allow people to swear over there)our village will be looking towards becoming a town. The only thing that I ask is that we build on high ground.
I ask that you do this for a specific reason. When our neighbors become jealous of our wealth, we will need an effective defense. If I have no morals, then you are passive weaklings. You turn the other cheek so far that you backs are turned.
I will smash mayonnaise jars of mustard gas on the rocks just below the city line. Mustard gas flows down hill. Following that, whatever village attacked us will be dealt with. I say that we go Sodom and Gomorrah on them with spud guns loaded with tabun on them.
For the next several weeks, anyone who tries to go into that village will simply die a few feet beyond the “line of death”. It will not take long for everyone in the area to know that the place simply cannot be gone to.
On the other hand, we will know exactly how long we have to wait before plundering their resources and we can add them to our own.
My atheism may well die with me but ultimately, I don't really care. If I manage to “infect” your community, that is fine but it doesn't really affect me. The important point is that if you take me in today, then in a century or so, your village will be the capital of the Kingdom.
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."
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Hum..sort of like what atheist do when using the Scandinavians countries to show the atheist are more moral than Christians?
But I would say, that I'd wager the stats between church going Christians and atheist quite possibly do bear out, and that this is not necessarily because of religion, but rather that church going Christians partake in a community, that fosters certain moral values, a commitment to family, supply support groups, get involved in surrounding neighborhoods, they feed the hungry, tend to the sick and needy at the individual level. But I'm sure their behavior would be align with atheist who attend lets say a Unitarian universalist gathering, or even humanist ones on a regular bases.
If you ever visited the bible belt, you'd be impressed how these individuals are exceptionally warm and friendly, Bill Maher speaks about this sense of hospitality in his Religilous as I recall (it might have been his show). But you're not going to find that sort of warmth when you travel to Sweden, where a sense of independence and individuality have long been fostered, rather than community dependence, and nurturing.
Their just haven't been many viable secular alternatives to the Church, experiments by the positivist to erect the Church of Science have failed, just out of the sheer failure to allure members even among the faithless.
Individuals who leave the church because of losing faith, or just never having it to begin with, don't leave and attend secular alternatives to the church, they tend to abandon them both all together.
How convenient that property crime was cited and violent crime was ignored. That is what was cherry picked. Conveniently ignoring the increased levels of violence, divorce and teen pregnancy rates in more religious states while stating that higher property crime rates in less religious states means that the unreligious are immoral is cherry picking. I suppose that people in the more religious states should worry about the beam in their eye before pointing out the splinter in ours.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
In regards to momn's assertion that, categorically speaking, Bible belt Christians are characteristically warm, friendly, altruistic, etc
Hmmm. I actually do live in the Bible Belt and have since birth. I know that there are some genuinely moral people who are church-goers, my own family would be the first example that come to mind. My aunt, uncle and a large numbers of cousins defected to that "cult" known as Mormonism and as far as I know are just as pious and upstanding as anyone could hope for.
However, in my own personal circumstances of having Christian co-workers and supervisors I have encountered a completely different experience...I have spent a lot of time and emotion in dealing with numerous self-professed Christians co-workers who ( even with no knowledge of my atheist status ) had no problem with setting their godly principles aside and behaving like back stabbing little children.
These *Christian co-workers ( *I am only addressing the issue of specific Christians who fail to live up to the tenets of their faith ) have been surprisingly some of the most profane and untrustworthy individuals I have ever worked with. They were certainly the equal to any of their, unsaved hell-bound counterparts.
If someone familiar with the WWJD? movement were to encounter only these individual Christians they would quickly come to the conclusion that Jesus himself must have been a world class jerk.
Everyone's experiences are different and unique. I speak only for myself. I am drawing from my years of work history spent as both a former Christian and now as a religious apostate.
Not exactly. Scandinavian countries are typically used as examples of largely nonreligious countries that function quite well (and arguably better than) the United States and other industrialized countries. They are not an example of an argument that atheists are more moral than Christians, but rather a counterargument to the assertion that Christians are more moral than atheists.
The survivalist fellow did cherry-pick his statistics, and quite poorly. He specifically mentioned averages, and an average is a specific mathematical function. The statistics he cited do not measure the morality of atheists vs. Christians. It should be no surprise that there would be lower crime rates in a small religious community vs. a large city. There would probably be an equally low crime rate in a small community that revolved around organic farming. Communities are not defined by religion alone.
Have you ever been to Sweden or any other Scandinavian country? I'm going to guess you haven't based on this statement.
Probably because this is a really bad idea. Kind of goes against the point of atheism.
What "secular alternatives to the church" are you talking about exactly?
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?