Teaching your kids athiesm
Offline Hey, I'm new here, and i have a question I've been thinking about for a little while.
Are you going to teach your kids about atheism/agnosticism and your beliefs? I'm completely unsure. I am a very big proponent of free thought and don't want to impose beliefs upon my children when they are too young to think about it. Also, religious people are statistically happier, and I want my kids to be happy. Even though it goes against my views of morality and forcing your religion on people, i might do it, just because of all the religious people in the world.
The world is very strongly populated with theists, as you know (Mostly Christians here in the states). What originally got me thinking about this was a blog I read where someone talked about there daughters kindergarden teacher telling he god made things the way that they are at a public school. I realized that if I don't teach my kids about rational thought and athiesm, someone else (Grandparent, teacher, friend, etc.) might convince them of gods existance because of my neglegance to tell my kids about the truth. Then I might have to tell them that the person who told them that is liar, which may create angry emotions.
I don't know what to do because I want them to decide for themselves through free thought what religion to follow, not through being told that god does or does not exists, but I don't know if thats possible, and I don't know if I should try to teach them first, or hope they don't get their heads filled with lies during there life and not be able to make their own decision.
Anyone have any suggestions, stories about what they did and how it turned out?
What I'm afraid is going to happen is going to be like the South Park episode about the mormons.
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Why not teach them a variety of beliefs? Teach them what you believe, and teach them what people they are likely to encounter believe. That way they probably wont have any big surprises when dealing with there friends, or teachers. Try not to imply that the people who disagree with you are stupid or liars because that might make it harder for your child to make friends. By the way I’m not a parent and I don’t have any special experience on this question so please take this with a grain of salt.
I would say that teaching the kids to think critically is the key. Tell them how to think and evaluate evidence, not take people's word for the truth of some fantastic story. Atheism falls out as a by-product, along with disbelief in a whole array of other superstitions like astrology, ghosts and homeopathy. As someone who was raised in this way, without mention of theism and atheism, allowed me to appreciate science by the time I learned to read. To me, bible stories were no different (except more gore) than other fairy tales, and I was never told to think that way.
Without mentioning some minor semantic differences, the post above pretty well summed up my feelings as well.
However, as I've never wanted, nor will I ever have kids, it's not something I've had to or will have to concern myself with. Thank God for that.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
I have a 5 and 6 year old, and religion is pretty low on the totem pole in regards to potential influences that I am concerned about, easily being bested by TV and Video Games, currently.
We also have my wifes 19 year old nephew living with us since he was 12. He sort of believed in God, primarily because his mother sort of did but he never really pushed the issue or pursued going to church, so we sort of left it at that for a few years. Now when he was 16 or 17 he decided to attend some kind of evening church sessions with a girl he liked, and after a couple weeks he came home asking us a few questions. Now mind you my nephew is bi-sexual, he was open about it with us and we never really made a big deal about it. Apprently this wasn't the same experience he had at this church, and he came home asking us about religion and homosexuality. My wife and I did the best we could giving him as much background information as we could. My wife even looked up a few churches that were not opposed to homosexuality that operated locally for him. However his desire to pursue religion sort of dropped off after that incident and he has been non-religious to this day.
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
OK. But shouldn't you be getting to bed now?
I have encouraged both my kids to participate in scripture classes, be open to religion - not simply Christianity, all forms of religion including 'occult' forms like wicca and medieval paganism. They are in no doubt about my lack of faith but I'd rather them learn to think than to tell them how to think.
If they happen to believe in a certain theology, that is their right. If they happen follow a certain faith or to be gay or become doctors or live in another country I won't love them any less.
Then again, I'm also a huge fan of allowing people to decide for themselves what is truth, what is opinion and what is fantasy.
Popular culture references the bible regularly, is it right to deny the deeper meaning of these references because I don't believe the story? How would they ever understand the jokes in "The Simpsons" for a start! I see a basic understanding of religion as important and a broad knowledge in any other forms of popular culture.
Why can't people accept that Atheism is by definition no faith? I don't believe in Atheism, I simply am Atheist.
Sure, depending on how you regard popular culture. Personally, I think it's pretty bankrupt of value.
Teaching someone to think critically, to not just accept whatever they are told and take it at face value, will help protect them from falling for scams. One of those scams is believing in sky pixies, reincarnation, earth mothers, etc. Learning "about" religion is just learning one of the facets of human history (and present). It would be strange to try and shelter someone from religion's existence; it has infected most every aspect of our public lives. But to just send someone out to the wolves without at least teaching them to not follow like a blind sheep... that's just cruelty.
It's simple enough. When they parrot "Jesus loves us"... ask lots of questions until they are at a stand still. Each time they do it, critical think the hell out of them. They will eventually, as with anything else, learn to ask their own questions and not just accept what they are given. We wouldn't just allow our children to blindly accept that they are the reincarnation of Elvis. We would try to get them to think about it so they don't go through their whole lives being insane. We would like for them to be aware of reality, of the world around them, and of the fact that they are not the reincarnation of Elvis.
It is not our place to indoctrinate our children with any beliefs. Teach them how to think critically and let them make their own choices. If they choose to believe in a god, then so be it.
Yup.
Critical thinking is not a belief. It is a use of one's intellect in an intelligent manner. Criticising others for blind allegiance to nonsense is evidence of an intelligence at work and I heartily recommend educating your offspring about the benefits of its employment and how best to hone the skill. It will stand them in good stead not only as a defence against indoctrination by others into stupidity in the form of religion, but indeed most other stupid ideologies born of ignorance, nurtured often by misguided notions of tribalism, and separated in character only by the degree to which they advertise their resultant bigotries.
I have found myself that the best approach was to teach by example, communicate honestly, and proactively help them when they were ambushed by fallacial thinking at a vulnerable age. If you can get them to their teenage years without having been duped then they stand a good chance of reaching adulthood in a relatively sane state (the bit in between can be quite an adventure regardless of how you have or have not approached the task).
If you live in a society where religion is pervasive and in-your-face, then it just means that you have to be even more vigilant. Think of it in terms of living in a place populated by paedophiles, many of whom are quite presentable and polite people, but who yet can't help themselves when they think they have the opportunity to corrupt a vulnerable child. Don't just sit back and hope for the best. Your offspring may indeed develop the skills required to fend off the inevitable assaults, but no self-respecting parent would trust to that alone.
In short - parent them.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Feeding them is now. and will become a far greater challenge. Given the trend for stay at home unemployed parents, they've plenty of time to parent, and not much bread to feed them.
Don't worry, it's going to get worse beyond your wildest dreams... Parenting anyone won't even be an issue.
Like it or not (the U.S.) is going down the shitter, and much of Europe is going to be following us.
People just don't "get it", and won't for at least a century or two.
Feeding one's child is a problem for four fifths of the world's population. A few more joining the number during an economic depression doesn't change the dynamic much, just the western perception of it.
Feeding children bullshit however is what is being discussed here. The propensity to do that seems to transcend economic circumstances, and the propensity to resist it likewise. I have met people in Asia, Africa, Europe and the US who are realists, intelligent, criticial thinkers and who, each in their own way, are parents whose sense of responsibility in that task includes protecting their children from being indoctrinated by fallacious ideology. Regardless of their culture or their economic circumstances, both of which vary enormously, they still share that common problem - the very one presented by the OP.
Don't deflect from the issue under discussion with doom-laden irrelevancies.
If you want to open a topic on global recession and how you obviously think it will destroy western society as we know it, do so. But introducing the subject in a discussion where it has tangential relevance is immature and - well, stupid actually.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
What you think about popular culture is your right - that doesn't mean it is right. The only way you should form an opinion about anything is by the information presented to you.
Should I believe popular culture is corrupt just because you tell me it is? No. Should I believe every form of religion is crap because this forum says so? No. Nor should I believe that God is true because a priest tells me it is? No.
Teaching someone to think critically is MUCH more than protecting them from scams - in fact, statistically people with a higher IQ are much more suseptible to scams than people with low IQs. Why? Because smart people are open to new ideas. Critical thinking allows us to move closer and closer to filling the gaps with science and knowledge that are currently being filled with religion and unfounded belief.
Whatever you think about the authenticity of the stories in the Bible, you cannot deny it's contibution to archeology which has in turn expanded our understanding about ancient cultures and ultimately proven that the story was false. The same can be said for the religious beliefs of any culture throughout history. Religion gives us an insight into the culture and a launching pad to understanding.
How do you propose my kids can argue against religion if they don't know or understand it? How can they be critical thinkers if they are always told what they should think?
Why can't people accept that Atheism is by definition no faith? I don't believe in Atheism, I simply am Atheist.
Who needs critical thinking! Tell them: "Just say NO!"
Having only one child I have only one anecdote. He is 33. I simply never taught him about any religion. He didn't pick up on any.
Now he may have some idea of a god out there some place but I doubt it. That is a far cry from a religion. It is not a set of rituals, taboos and a myriad of arbitrary beliefs which constitute a religion.
The problems within and among religions are in those rituals, taboos and arbitrary beliefs. If the whole of the disagreement were on whether or not there is a god or gods there would be no problems.
Simply not teaching any religion is good enough. If you teach one or more then there is the risk of the child growing up to search for the true™ religion. Because of this there is no safe religion to teach.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
While teaching kids reason is a good thing I would assume (not being a parent) that sometimes kids have to accept something on trust/fear of punishment.
Ie you can't really teach a 5 year Newtonian mechanics and expect them to understand it but some discipline when they try to walk into a speeding car sounds good
I think Dawkins discusses it in the God Delusion that kids inheritently tend to trust what their parents say most the time it will keep them alive and them accepting religion is an unfortunate by product of this
i never actually "taught" my son atheism. when the issue of religion came up( his mom and i are long divorced and she remarried to a catholic lawyer) i simply told him that i didn't believe in god but that whatever he chose to believe was fine with me, and if he ever wanted to ask me about the choice i had made i would be glad to answer any questions he had. over a few years we had many casual conversations about my views and the views of the church. eventually, when he was around 12 or 13, he informed me that he was agnostic. about a year or so later he announced that he was atheist.
he's 16 now and very much an atheist, which of course makes me happy, but i never told him that i wanted him to go one way or the other. i just provided a different perspective and let him decide for himself.
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
Correct.
Correct.
Obviously.
I made no reference to IQ.
Yes.
Which is the same as learning about any other aspect of human culture. I made no reference to telling a child what they should think, in fact, I went the total opposite direction.
Good for you. A little honesty goes a long way, sounds like.
I try to avoid doing any conversions. I'm just not that clever of a person or informed on the subject of religion to actively do that kind of thing. If in the course of a discussion(s) a person should change their views of religion over to my side then so be it, doesn't hurt my feelings.
Sorry, I made the jump from critical thinking to smart people which is generally gauged by IQ. I did not intend on distorting your words or meaning.
As far as everything else... errr... are we now both on the same page?
Why can't people accept that Atheism is by definition no faith? I don't believe in Atheism, I simply am Atheist.