Treat2 ... are you looking for a debate about Pantheism?
I noticed in a couple of threads Treat2 has been taking odd, random swipes at Pantheism. I don't know if he's aware that our numbers at RRS include a few pan(en)theists so I thought I'd start a thread where we can out ourselves for those who have a beef, of sorts, with our stuff and nonsense.
Treat2 (and any other atheist who wishes it) you're cordially invited to formally list, or rant if you'd prefer it, your objections to pantheism here so we (well.. in all likelihood it will just be "I" can respond to them.
So it begins...
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
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Eloise, I appreciate you taking the time to spell so much of that out, but I don't see the connection to God at all.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that we are made up of many constituents and those are made up of constituents and so forth until you get down to dna and even beyond that there are particles and all of these particles make up the universe.
How does that make a point closer to God?
Also, Einstein's theory of relativity and its implications on time had nothing to do with what Einstein tried to do for the rest of his life. His problem was with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics destroyed direct cause and effect because we cannot truly 100% predict what a quantum particle is going to do, except in specific circumstances regarding quantum entanglement. The uncertainty principle, which applies to quantum particles states that the more precise a measurement of momentum we obtain, the less precise a measurement of position we can obtain and vice versa. So no matter what we do, we cannot be certain about a particles momentum and position at once, this is probably the biggest difference between quantum mechanics and newtonian mechanics. The theory of relativity did not really have any problem incorporating cause and effect, it is quantum mechanics. Einstein wanted to find a unified theory of everything and was unable to do so because of the complete incompatibility of his theory of relativity with quantum mechanics. This is what string theorists are trying to do, unify quantum mechanics and relativity. My opinion is that it is more of a one in a million chance they are right type thing, but it is hella worth it if they do happen to be right, so it is worth the odds just in case it does work out.
Given that string theory has not yet been confirmed and may not for a long time, we can only work off of relativity and quantum mechanics, both of which have been quite accurate in modeling what each respectively tries to model.
Now, Einstein was very troubled with quantum mechanics because of the directly fundamental lack of predictability. He seemed to take this as though, if there were a God, he was alienating us.
Also I am curious why you believe it to be God and not multiple gods or even a matrix scenario where machines are controlling the behavior of particles and us.
Okay, then, I agree.
Hahaha!
Yes, I was being completely honest, but I can definitely understand why you would be cautious regarding my sincerity there. In fact, if you had been someone else (a Scientologist?), it probably would have been a sarcastic remark.
Thanks. I'm still digesting it, but it looks good.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Just a quick note on this point. I tried to weave it into the post but it was slightly too much a digression to make when I was already writing a bit of a tome, however, yes I intended to expand on this point to say that Einstein probably didn't realise that his model of time had undermined the idea of cause as the prima materia this way.
Quantum experiments were where it originally became evident that the cause-effect model was in trouble and I take from the stories that Einstein felt he had bitten the hands which fed him by having helped Quantum theory get off the ground and therein lived by the hope that the damage his theories had done to the old school body of work could be minimised. I think with that mind it would have been difficult for him to let himself see that his model of time undermined the cause-effect hypothesis as well as Quantum Theory had, and I was going to wind out a little speculation it was his not seeing this that had him believe it was still a fixable problem.
So... it would have taken a pretty major aside to say all this, and that is why I left it out, but suffice it to say, I am aware that Einstein didn't attribute the problem to his own theories.
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
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No!
Pantheists redefine the Dictionary.
Pantheists don't simply redefine the universe as gods. Pantheists redefine much more than that. It;s hardly an exaggeration
to note that Pntheists redefine the Dictionary.
My earliest posts recommended
how you CAN learn about Pantheism and Pasntheist-speak. You''re far from understanding a Pantheist by simply thinking they just redefine the universe as gods.
They obfuscate language itself.
As to the thread-poster, not being a Pantheist. I've not ing to debate with her. Primarily, because she founded the TREAT2 FAN CLUB!
Also, don't forget my 2 questons for Pantheists if you decide to devote several hours studying Pantheism, as suuggested in one of my earliest posts.
Those 2 questions are key to understand why Pantheists ARE
like Theists, but understanding that comes only after you've independently studied Pantheism.
Well I think it's about time we started ignoring treat. This forum will be a lot better off that way. Don't feed the trolls...
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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I agree.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Would you like me to buy a nipple for you to suck, or would you like to go on
sucking your own?
Awww, the troll's getting mad. How adorable!
Mad? At what? Your posts are amusing. I'm enjoying myself pea-brain.
I think treat2 is a good candidate to replace Matt
I agree.
I also agree. Can someone draw up a legal document stating the fact?
I agree. He's definitely a worthy replacement for Matt. In fact, I think he's a lot more annoying.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
It's always a pleasure to disrupt a Borg hive.
I love you all!
Where you get your ideas, I'll never know.