The emotions surrounding abortion
Offline It's time to really get folks emotions going and bring up abortion. Many have no doubt watched Obama's address to the Notre Dame graduating classes. IMO, it was a speech that should go down in history up there with MLK and JFK. He was very nuanced in his approach to abortion and stem cell research and acknowledged the diverse points of views. He also acknowledged atheists in his speech.
Before I write any further, I should state that I am pro-choice. I support a woman's right to choose 100%. And I also can understand the emotional anguish a woman must go through in making this decision. I would think that even an atheist woman does not relish having an abortion and thus far I have yet to meet one who equates the fetus to an appendix, tumor or a pimple that has to be removed.
At every moment, the gut and oral cavity sheds healthy cells with the entire genome intact. Theoretically, those cells could be de-differentiated back to becoming an embryonic cell and therefore develop into a clone if placed in inside the womb. And this is becoming more of a reality than sci-fi (ie. dolly the sheep). Yet we don't shed tears when we lose those cells. Even before conception, the genetic information is still there but present in separate gametes of sperm and ovum. Yet we don't lament over spilled seed. What is this emotional stranglehold that humans have over the early fetus that causes so much pain for a woman and man when a miscarriage occurs. Why do we impart special emotional status to the unconscious multicellular group of embryonic cells that we would never give to say the appendix. Why can't we just call it a collection of cells given that science would declare this so? Added to this is the fact that primates share 99% of our genome and no sadness over the demise of a fetal primate. Is this feeling for the human embryo a social construct or is it innate? Your thoughts.
- Login to post comments
But the cell does not do that on it's own naturally. [Here I define "naturally" as not requring human intervention]
Fallacy of composition, everybody is a collection of cells.
But the point is that those cells develop into a person.
As for primate abortion for example, primates cannot use birth control, they, to my knowledge, cannot process the possible consequences of getting pregnant as well as humans can.
Abortion is necessary in our society.
It will always exist, even if it is made illegal.
It would only become more dangerous then for the women.
They will have to go back to "Republican Abortions". I didn't mean to get punched repeatedly in the stomach, fall down those stairs, drink that bottle of liquor then get hit by a car...really!
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Forgot this part:
It's innate. The whole survival of the species and spread our genes thing.
Not to shock anyone, but I agree with the theist here. In fact, this is one of the weak points of the supposedly 'pro choice' view.
( I consider the terms "pro choice" and "pro life" to be both equally nonsense. The question is legalized abortion, and the positions are legal or No.)
And they will, without any need for further intervention
another good point.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I don't see the terms as necessarily mutually exclusive.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Well, the emotional stranglehold is probably due to the active imagination of the parents who want children -- the thought of giving their own parents grandbabies, the thought of being able to take their baby to play dates, dressing baby, playing with baby, bragging about baby etc..
It is the 'possible baby' not the clump of cells that wins out.
Sure wouldn't have the same tune "Mom, dad... I have a clump of cells that will develop into a baby soon!"
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
I don't feel any emotions over abortion, other than I don't see why people want to make it illegal when it is going to happen anyway, and would only push society back into having more black market activities.
If it is made illegal, who would you punish? The mothers? The doctors? What kind of punishment would you declare as "fitting"? You have to have a penalty for a crime. If you define it as a person, it would be manslaughter then at the least, more likely criminal homicide.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
True, but I think it's mostly innate, though I don't deny the cultural aspect of it.
Good question.
I don't think throwing either in jail will accomplish anything. Perhaps the women should get counsling or something, that would be more productive than the slammer. I mean courts can order psychological evaluations right?
I think you are missing the point of the opening thread. This was not meant to be a pro-choice/pro-life debate. I am pro-choice and an atheist. I am simply asking questions of the emotions surrounding abortion or for that matter, a miscarriage. It took my wife and I close to a year to recover emotionally after her miscarriage. Both of us are pro-choice and it was early in the first trimester. Where does the sadness over this come from? Is it innate as Pineapple implied or is it sociocultural as Obsidianwords suggested because of hopes, wants and desires of would be parents? I think it is an emotional phenomena worth exploring which I think at some level involves innate cognitive drives as a foundation. I think religion preys on those cognitive vulnerabilities often to the extent of extremism i.e. nurture via nature.
I'm curious as to whether primates grieve from a miscarriage. It would certainly make sense if they and other species did. We have innate mechanisms which serve to propogate our genome into the subsequent generations. From an evolutionary psychology standpoint, it is therefore natural for parents to grieve. Thanks, Pineapple.
Its only emotional at a political level in the US and a few other very small nations, in most other countries it has no more political signficance than being left or right handed.
That isnt to say it isnt emotional for the individuals effected but its simply isnt something that affects how people vote.
Or in other words if you are either pro choice or pro life you are almost certainly American eveywhere else its probably none of anyone business
Let me ask you this then. Were you happy about having a child before it was born?
If so, then wouldn't it be natural to mourn the loss of something?
If I assumed I had a "sure fire bet" in the stock market that would make me rich...and then lost it, I would be devastated emotionally at the loss of investment, were I not already prepared for it. Now replace money with a family member, and you have deeper reaching emotions.
It is only natural to feel attached to things. The unborn child itself isn't really what you are mourning though, it is the future that you envisioned with it in all likelihood.
It is a sadness born from the inherant selfishness in all thinking creatures. If you think about raising a child, and emotionally make plans and prepare for it..then you are not considering it as a person, but as a future development that belongs to you. A family member in the making.
At least, these are my speculations on the emotional side of it. I don't ever plan on having kids, so I have no real stake in it. Don't take what I say too seriously. :3
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Yes, there are risks of emotional issues just like with any surgery that invasive (especially on that part of the body), but I suspect a good chunk of the negative emotions connected to it (shame, guilt, depression) are cultural.
Abortion is still pretty taboo, and the social/familial consequences can be intense even for those living in more open-minded areas. If a woman is given plenty of love, support and good nature before, during and after the procedure and reminded not to feel guilty at all and her community also supports her, I don't see the reason for negative emotion other than a potential physiological trauma from losing a baby that will heal over time.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
Uh. Penalties are supposed to be punitive, cap'n.
Besides; what the hell would they get counselling on?
Psychologist: 'So. How do you feel about the abortion?'
Dude: 'Uh. Good, I guess. We couldn't afford a kid.'
Spouse: '...Yeah. I'm a bit upset, but there wasn't much else to be done.'
Psychologist: '...Well then. Alrighty.'
???
...I'm not often one for complaining about social government spending, but this would be such a retarded waste of money. Counselling is not a punishment, and counselling someone after they have done something that they don't really regret and did of sound mind is silly. We may as well have the government sit them down with friends for coffee & doughnuts.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Psychologist: 'That'll be $400.'
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
/facepalm
There are many things to be said here
1] Why didn't you use birth control?
2] Why couldn't you put it up for adoption
etc... etc.....
So as a psychologist you would be trying to guilt trip your patients on past decisions?
Wow, I would so never go to you.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Besides, 1. isn't always true, and if it is, they could've forgotten at the heat of the moment or something. Why would that need to be treated?
And 2. Because they didn't want to go through the pregnancy? I don't see the psychological harm/stress that would be treated here.
''Black Holes result from God dividing the universe by zero.''
'Cause you know, what's the point of trying to prevent it from happening again?
If they didn't want a kid in the first place, they could use birth control, or something to that effect.
What ever happened to taking responsability for your decisions?
Shit happens, you know? You can't control everything even if you are careful. And I say having an abortion done is very responsible. It takes a lot of courage.
What strikes me as far more irresponsible is the plethora of poor, uneducated people that get knocked up, keep the child when they know they can't afford it and continue having babies that in turn become poor and uneducated.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
My stance is that the counsling should come BEFORE the abortion that way, a responsible and informed decision can be made.
So then, death penalty for every woman that had an abortion because they couldn't support a child? It would fall under criminal homocide probably, and the doctor would be charged as well.
With states holding the death penalty, this is what would happen if it was made illegal.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
eh... so uh, whats the timetable we're talking about on this "counciling?"
Cause every passing week is just gonna make it harder to get rid of the fetus/cell clump/ baby. physically, mentally, and legally >.>
What Would Kharn Do?
It can't be homicide per se since the fetus is not a person.
I said the counsling could be used to determine if the abortion is the right choice.
A week at most perhaps.
Wow, talk about blaming the victim.
As others have said, birth control can fail. Only abstinence is 100% effective, and that's 'birth control' in the same way that atheism is a religion.
The issue's more complex than that- though ultimately I'm with ClockCat (as often I am). The negative results of making abortion illegal would far outweigh the positives. Yes it's an unpleasant thing; it's a rare person who is specifically 'pro-abortion' and not 'pro-option of abortion.' BUT- it should be there. As a series of options, including birth control of various types. Of course, in the U.S., the rhetoric has turned even against birth control- generally lumping 'abortion counseling' in with birth control education, and moreover, conflating abortion counseling with performing abortions.
So even that's pretty well compromised in the U.S.
But that is completely against the argument used by pro-lifers. They claim that it IS a person, and even push for legislation that CALLS it a person to make abortion illegal.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Honestly, if you asked self-proclaimed pro-lifers what the punishment for mothers who had an illegal abortion should be, very few of them would give a definitive answer. Based on videos I've seen and the people I've talked to, most of them would end up admitting that they've never thought about it or they just don't know, even the ones that claim new fetuses = babies. The average pro-lifer's belief that abortion is murder is based on emotion and religion. Unfortunately, their conscience also tells them that sending women to jail for life for having an abortion is also wrong, so their moral compass can't cope with it. They're too dumb to approach the issue with logic, so they end up either putting up mental blocks or rationalizing away the inconsistency.
Basically, people are stupid.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
If healthcare coverage were broadened to meet the needs of the poor to include intensive sex education, urgent prenatal care, widespread availability of contraception and abortifacient drugs (eg. RU486 taken soon after unprotected intercourse) then this should absolve any further responsibility on behalf of society. If contraception fails or if a couple fails to use contraception, then they would have up to 7 weeks to terminate the pregnancy using RU486. If it fails within that time, then a dilatation and curettage/suction should be an option. If after all these measures, a couple knowingly continues to act irresponsibly (ie. well past the point at which an abortifacient loses it's efficacy) then there are 2 options. Either the couple take personal responbility for their actions (ie. complete the pregnancy to term and then either raise the child or give it up for adoption) or they should relinquish their civil liberties and allow the state to abort the fetus and then forcibly sterilize the couple. I would liken this to an individual who loses his/her drivers license or goes to jail because of drunk driving. With fucking, drinking, using recreational drugs, a person should be held responsible for his/her actions. The only circumstances where I would of course take exception to this is when the mother's life is at stake, genetic/chromosomal disorder (eg. trisomy 13), congenital malformation (eg. anencephaly) or that she is a victim of sexual assault (ie. rape, incest, etc...).
You mean used by SOME pro-lifers right?
All the ones I've seen with signs out picketing abortion clinics, on the street handing out pamphlets, and in my school begging for donations.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.