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What would convince you that "personal" God(s) do exist?
Posted on: May 25, 2009 - 4:47am
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What would convince you that "personal" God(s) do exist?
Here is a simple question for What would convince you that "personal" God(s) do exist?
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One that is still there after the mushrooms wear off.
Or one that is there without the mushrooms.
Personal means personal. I do not expect any playing coy or any variation of the Christian "guess who I am really" BS.
This question takes us back to a more fundamental question. What kind of god wants to be recognized by us? And knowing what we are like, why the silly games? And why are there so many silly games to explain why there are silly games instead of something explicit?
As I said, it is not belief in a god that matters. As long as belief in a god is no different from belief in some intelligent species on a planet way out there some place. Nor does it matter if there is a belief in what that god wants.
The problem starts when what this god wants includes imposing that upon unwilling people.
Rome got along fine with all the gods and all their followers. There were several "only one god" cults like Sol Invictus.
The problems started when the "and none other" cult became powerful enough to implement that by force.
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To keep my real history quotient up the eastern declaration of only one god was very selectively enforced in a manner that was most profitable to the empire and took several centuries after Constantine before it was non-selective.
I think I can make a case not only for the Koran being the first unambiguous declaration of monotheism but also that the "threat" of Islam was the main motivation for an absolute, no exceptions imposition of Christianity.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
A few things would have to occur:
1. Angelina telling me that she was only with Brad to make me jealous.
2. The ex-wife attending a Dr. Phil. taping when the building catches fire...tragically none survive.
3. The side effect from my weight loss pills (which work, btw) is unexplained penis growth.
4. NJ cuts property taxes to the national average. (believe it or not, *this* stands the least chance of occuring)
...and then of course, this God fella wouold have to reveal himself by enacting his wrath at all those who did violence in his name.
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Evidence!
That's it, in the case of the weak atheist position. If you're going to doubt something, but not be 100% sure, then you're waiting for evidence.
What would constitute evidence? Either physical evidence (which is obviously not forthcoming) or requiring a god as the missing variable in the explanation of something.
That's why the Higgs boson was nick-named the "God particle": it's the only major piece of theoretical particle physics that doesn't have experimental evidence to directly back it up.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
It depends on what qualities the god has. Evidence wouldn't really be useful in proving the existence of an omnipotent god because an omnipotent god would render impracticable anything that one might use to verify evidence. Take inductive reasoning for example. Induction is basically using past experience to infer something about future experiences. But an omnipotent god could alter future experiences, or past experiences making induction unreliable so you couldn't trust the reasoning that led you to the conclusion that god existed. I would say the fact that things like induction and logic are reliable is evidence that there are no gods.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
A powerful delusion or at least a good social benefit so I could pretend to have a personal god. Hey, I'm no better than a Theist.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I'm honesrly unclear as to what physical evidence would satisfy you.
Could you cite just two simple hypothetical examples of what manner of physical evidence would satisfy you?
Well, um.........evidence.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
If an all-knowing, omnipotent deity could snap his finger and make ME religious. It hasn't happened yet in 50 + years.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
as an amputee, please regrow my leg. please. PLEASE! nope. oh snap!!
Just thought I'd put that in quotes because it's my new favourite argument. (Well, part of my new favourite argument.)
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Haha! Welcome to the forums.
I can't remember who it was who was arguing that God was defined as the thing that has the power to answer prayers. The next time that thing grows your leg back, we can all have a good laugh at how wrong we all were.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Sorry, I thought I eliminated it with "obviously not forthcoming". For the reasons that Gauche pointed out (and I have in other threads) you wouldn't be able to apply anything as evidence to something that was sufficiently vague.
For instance, if I can't form a hypothesis about what I'm looking for, what could I have as evidence to apply to it? Nothing would apply!
The only gap I see for weak atheists is if a god is required to explain something. That might be an in.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
What would convince me? If Angolina Jolie knocked on my door 5 seconds from now and offered me a blowjob.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
There is nothing you could say, do or show me to convince me of any reality beyond what can be seen or proved with factual evidence...
Respectfully,
Lenny
"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush
A million dollars on my front porch tomorrow and no questions asked about it.
If God doesn't find my soul's salvation important enough to arrange that he can always just throw me in hell.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
LOL Welcome!
Sorry to hear about the leg. At least you have a sense of humor about it though.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
When I was 18 I lost my right eye to a gunshot. My Fundie religious sister has always claimed that God would regrow it.
Still waiting.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
What's a "personal god"?
Concrete scientific evidence.
Still no million dollars. This is at least the fourth time I've offered to sell God my soul. Maybe he doesn't want it?
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
Simply put, a personal god, as opposed to a non-personal god, would be a deity that a Theist would worship. Additionally, such a deity would act with intent aka an agenda, wither or not it's known. An example is a Judeo-Christian God.
A "non-personal" God would refer to what a Pantheist would call their God. An example of that would bw=e what Einstein referred to as
his belief in the God of Spinoza, or as he called it: Spinoza's God.
Google "non-personal" God
or
nonpersonal" God
to get an idea of what a personal God does not refer to.
Could you give just 2 hypothetical examples of evidence that would satisfy you?
I'm trying to get a hypothetical idea of what would actually convince you,
beyond our standard "evidence" response. Tx.
I like that, however, I'd prefer to require her to provide me with a free BJ whenever my pipes need cleaning.
I think you nailed the lid on the coffin, and obviously understand my intent.
In any case, we've got an interesting array of responses which notably include sex, drugs, and rock n' roll. (Well, maybe not any requests for music.)
All the same, I find the responses rather "telling", in that ALL Atheists can not come up with anything scientific that would convince them of anything.
As can be seen, there IS NOTHING (that makes any sense) that would change the mind of an Atheist about the existence question.
No Theist would be foolish enough to accept our requirement for a free blowjob from a movie star.
HERE IS MY POINT...
Despite our famous / infamous
Atheist retort along the lines of empyrical evidence.
WE CAN NOT even think of any kind of hypothetical rational scientific empyrical evidence
that we as Atheists WOULD EVEN ACCEPT!
This is not something that would surprise anyone. I simply wanred to make a point... there REALLY nothing that would ever change our minds about the existence
question.
LOGICALLY, that leads to the following question...
Why not?
To put it another way, ...
and this would be a topic for another thread, as I'm sure it has been; The question is why are you an Atheist?
The answe, in short, is simply that we gave up on the tooth fairy when we were children that didn't know better.
In any case, in general, the responses to the question have remained quite amusing to all.
Shit! I'm blogging again.
Ok. How about this...
I'll blow my head off, and if I end up in heaven or hell
then I'd know!
Oh shit! I forgot. We ain't devout enough to go anywhere.
Well, I'm gonna fallback on original sin, and not having been Baptised. That ought to at least get me to hell.
do exist ? NOTHING at ALL,just the term God is childish.
I would have to be allowed a game of chess with death.
I've been giving this some thought recently. Like HisWillness said, evidence is what would convince me. However, evidence (ie, the measurement of natural phenomena) doesn't apply to a supernatural being (who would be capable of altering those phenomena, and your measurements, at will). In lieu of a picture of god at a kegger or some such, I would accept a philosophical proof that reconciles divine revelation as an epistemology with reality.
Or, show me your god. Failing that, show me your god's perfect knowledge. If you can't, I'm not interested.
Religion is a virus.
Fight the infection.
7th Seal fan, eh?
Well I can help with the music. If I wake up tommorow morning knowing how to play all of Dream Theater, despite the fact that I have not even tried seriously to study thier works, then I will let you know. That should be fairly easy for an omnipotent being.
=
There is an easy answer to this question. Jesus made a claim that is both verifiable and falsifiable:
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"
Like it or not, it would seem that this has been falsified in this thread alone. No blowjobs from Angelina Jolie. No million dollars. But these are just trivial things. Consider the child sex slaves who are right now calling out to a God who does not answer. The abused wives. The diseased and disabled. Those trapped in the path of natural disasters. The starving. The oppressed. If everyone who called out for God to save them was saved that would be all the proof I would require. This statement is falsified every second of every day. If the reverse were true and paryers were answered, even if it was only the prayers of the suffering for salvation, I would have to believe. But in order for a proposition to be true it must have predictive power which means it couldn't be true sometimes and false other times. It would have to be true all the time. So every preyer would have to be answered all the time. Then, I would have to believe.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg, Nobel Prize-winning physicist
I agree with you Wrath. I don't really care about the million. It's just an easily verified and repeatable test (plus the pay off is huge). Ask for a million, sleep, wake up, check for money on porch. Due to the results I can assume one of two things. There is no god, or he just doesn't want to give me millions of dollars. If I did actually find a large some of money on my porch one morning I would be surprised but I wouldn't convert.
Now if instead, like you said, every obviously deserving and honest prayer were answered in good time, I might think twice. If the world weren't such a shit hole, I would be more inclined to believe in a loving god who takes a personal interest in the lives of his followers. However that's not how it is. The world is barbaric and unforgiving. No truly loving god would create a world such as this. Those of us who are lucky enough to be born in a more civilized area still can't explain away God's lack of action against the untold suffering of who are not so fortunate.
If there is a God he's a dick, and I'd tell him to his face if I ever saw him.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
And those are just his finer points.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I don't know about calling it a god.
If a being could control the forces that govern the universe on a whim and then repeat the test to be verified by people who can measure them. Then if showed that the entropy doesn't apply to it and that it could manipulate entropy.
After that I don't know if I would still call it god. I mean it is possible that these are all things that humans might be able to control as technology advances. It could simply be an advanced being, but still not a god. Maybe I would call it Q.
Bringing people back to life, but like I said it could just be an advanced being with the technology to either make me sense things that are not there, or traveled through time and brought them here.
Of course the moment it asked me to call it god and worship it. All I would really think is "Any being worth worship wouldn't require it nor need it for anything."
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
Just wondered if you are aware that "Q" is not a name/term invented by the writers of Star Trek.
"Q" has historical roots. At one time I could have told you something about them, but
that was quite a while ago.
If you're interested, I assume google it would eventually get you there.
I find the god idea absurd. I prayed, he didn't answer. I asked him to prove he existed, he never did it.
I listened to so called "personal testimonies", which are nothing more than highly psychological and mental imaginations....
He was never there when I needed him..
He never gave me direction on my life when I spent days fasting.
He scared me of hell, and made me feel trapped.. I couldn't go forward and I couldn't go back.
He never kept his word. He never fulfilled promises.
Now,.... You ask what sort of EVIDENCE *I* need to PROVE a *GOD* EXISTS??????????????????
Sorry mate. You've lost me. I don't NEED EVIDENCE!!!!!!! I need what I've already heard to happen!!!!!
You're out of your mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IN one sentence,
*THERE IS NO EVIDENCE, ONLY IMAGINATION.* FULLSTOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I suggest if you want to prove god exists ask him to reveal his factory where he made everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When you've done that.. ask yourself whether he exists. ANd I'd like to hear your answer.
Another lost soul.
I shall pray to God for your salvation and redemption from your sins.
Your a damn bloody idiot treat...
and by the way, You haven't answered my question: What happened when you asked *God* to show you his factory?
You see, prayer doesn't work, because *God* is IMAGINARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!