Out of Body Experiences
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So I get into a philosophical debate with someone the other day, and he tells me to explain Out of Body Experiences, and how people who were otherwise dead "come back" and explain things about the hospital room from an aerial point of view i.e. numbers on top of machines or on the floor, etc. I also have a delusional Christian mother who has told me her own little story numerous times of when she was in a hospital floating above and facing her body, but felt a huge hand holding her down from behind.
Is this just a typical modern fairy tale religious people like to cling to, or is there some scientific explanation for these so-called out-of-body experiences? I know dreams are definitely one explanation, but why would everyone have a similar experience? And I'm also sure a lot of the stories I've read are religious propaganda, stories about getting a taste of hell, etc. that try to get 'nonbelievers' to convert.
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Both. There are scientific explanations for out-of-body experiences. Nevertheless, theists still use them as evidence that the soul can be separated from the body, as if our consciousness, intelligence, even our senses, etc. can simply be "immaterial."
This is the only part of the claim that intrigues me because it can be verified. Everything else, despite the number of cases and the insistence of the subjects, can be dismissed, with good reason.
I would ask for specific examples. Also, make sure that the subjects couldn't have seen these things before or after they were lying down.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
When someone makes and extra-ordinary claim, then asks you a question; quickly remind them that you do NOT have to explain zero, they made the claim and they get to explain it. When people die, we as a society bury them. When they sit on the edge of a hospital bed and tell us they came "back" we as a society do NOT bury them. In fact it seams to upset the legal authoritys when we try to bury people who are still talking. When your mother was floating around it was a combination of drugs and a low oxygen supply to her brain; and that huge hand holding her down was the sensation of the operating table she was laying on has the drugs took hold. Why do others have similer experiences? Because they get similer drugs, for similer reasons, in similer situations. It would be irrartional if they didn't get similer results. Meanwhile back at the ranch: religios are always trying to get non-believers to convert.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Two words ket a mine
Is it just me or could this all be pretty easily explained by the altered state of mind that occurs from injury and strong medication?
There is certainly a phenomenon where people dream or hallucinate as a result of trauma and medication, but there is no real way to prove (none that I'm aware of) or no place where it's been verified that a person read the serial number off of the top of some medical equipment in their room.
That sounds more like hallucination being embellished after the fact.
I've been under general anesthesia before and I can attest that when you awake, you will likely have an altered perception of the world. Having said that, my misperception brought on my medicinal chemicals is no more real that the hallucinations that people describe after being severely injured and drugged to the gills.
I believe I said the exact same thing, though useing different words.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I've had an out-of-body experience, and I'm not the only one. My experience is, that these things really do happen and they do not require to be near death, traumatized or narcotized in any way. These circumstances can not be an explanation for a spontaneous occurence of the same phenomenon.
Besides me, I know that a former member of our forum, I.A.G.A.Y., had also a spontaneous OOBE.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
There are a great deal of people who claim to have had an out-of-body experience and I do not doubt that many of them are sincere in the belief.
Having said that, the statement of experience does not equal proof, nor does it approach the level of a statement of verifiable fact. Further, there really is no way to escape the idea that it is more likely to induce a hallucination through relatively mundane needs than it is to have an (unproven) disembodied persona leave the human body.
I'm not interested in seeming to disrespect anyone, but the absence of useful proof is not changed based on yet another person who can relate a personal anecdote. The claim that I have seen Elvis does not increase the probability that he is actually alive.
"Out of body experiences are no different than NDE or Near Death Experiences" BOTH are merely wishful thinking"
I had "experiences" myself. But what they all are are merely our societal input mixing with our fears and wishes and our sensory input, in a dream state.
I have "seen" my dead grandmother at the foot of my bed. I have seen my dead father at the foot of my bed. BUT I have also seen my LIVE and living mother at the foot of my bed. I have also had the "sensation" of floating above the parking lot in front of my house when I was a kid.
THIS is nothing more than our subconscious mixing with our sensors without being aware of it.
It is bullshit. There is nothing magic about our own brains tricking ourselves into seeing things that are not real.
What scientists suspect when the brain dies it dumps out it's files. The neurons fire off toward the visual cortex which gives the illusion of a "white light" in which the files mix while being dumped that give you the "flash" of your life. It is no different than when you squash a daddy long legs and the legs twitch.
This "NDE" people claim, would not happen if they were shot in the back of the head with a shotgun at point blank.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I know that I had the "experience". But the reality was that my "experiance" was merely a product of my own emagination. Before I was an atheist or even a mild skeptic I would have argued that my "experiences" were real.
My "experiences" were no more different than beleiving Santa was real. There was a time when no one could convince me that he wasn't.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Anyway, would that be enough for you if someone would see you floating above that parking lot, then?
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
If you had multiple, impartial witnesses and the entire process were open, double-blind and replicable then, personally I would take that as evidence for the existence of the phenomenon. It wouldn't be a slam dunk, but it would be a point from which you could start a decent investigation.
The likelihood of any of this occurring also strikes me as slightly less than my cat learning to play the guitar solo from Sultans of Swing.
After all, at least we know that the cat, electric guitars and that song actually exist.
Having said that, what you're asking is entirely different. If Jim gets his friend to say "yeah, I totally saw Jim leave his body and hover over that Arby's..." all I would do is carefully back away and go home.
The anecdotal support of an anecdotal event is not proof, and that's the only thing you are offering. It's the same thing for people claiming to have had a numinous experience of god; so what? You've said it, but where do we go from there?
Whether it's divine visions, Out-of-Body, Near Death Experience, astral projection, transcendental meditation, remote viewing or any other proposed phenomenon of this type, it all boils down to precisely one question:
Is there any information to establish that ‘X’ is more than just a claim without basis?
Again and again the answer is always 'no'.
If there is information that moves Out-of-Body from a claim with no verifiable supporting evidence, I'd love to hear it but I'm relatively certain that I simply will not.
out of body experience
I flew around the little room once
on intravenous Demerol
it weren't supernatural
- Vic Chesnutt
Yeah. That's kinda what I think. It weren't supernatural.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Luminon,
It'd be pretty easy to prove. Have someone write on a piece of paper. Put that paper, writing-side up, on a top shelf, or another location that is out-of-view of the room. Neither the subject nor the person conducting the test should know what is written on the paper, nor really even know the person who wrote on the paper.
Induce the OOBE.
After, the subject should be able to say what was written on the paper.
Do this several times, with controls in which nothing is written on the paper, and also where there is no paper at all.
If the hit rate were substantial, I would start to believe the OOBEs were something other than a perceptional state of the brain. Until then, it's a fun experience, but otherwise reflects internal mind-states, and not a physical separation of the mind and brain.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
I have no idea how many years would I have to train things like astral projection, to meet the requirements for a skeptical inquiry. I wouldn't be of course paid for that, and in the end, there would be a lot of unwanted publicity around me, which effectively interferes with current and future work and family life, which could in return affect my sleep routine, and therefore the astral projection. You see, what you consider a decent beginning of the inquiry, is more like a glorious achievement in my view. This is why those who only had some spontaneous OOBE don't bother to develop that into a controlled ability, and those who managed it, they hold their mouth shut and watch high school girls at showers. It's not just a phenomenon to study, it's a person, who may lose friends, family, house, job and dignity, no matter if the attempt is succesful or not.
Nobody would believe him that he never watched the hot co-worker in an intimate moments. Specially not his wife and media. And the boss could make it a case of sexual harrasment. And suddenly, out-of-body experiences are proven, but the one who proved it is knee-deep in shit. Everyone can put two and two together. Now excuse me, I've got to doze off quickly, the evening training of local female basketball team is just about to end
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Tell your friend that you have looked into this seriously. Then tell him that it turns out that most hospitals have random gay porn taped to the tops of machines and that it gets changed weekly to limit the odds of someone knowing what was there at a certain point in time.
Since nobody has ever described what they, in fact, must have seen, the whole idea of NDEs is suspect.
=
"(though nobody really tries to imagine anything)"
*Kicks Luminon*
You discredit the greatest story tellers of human history, and myself, by insinuating that people don't put effort into imagining things.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I'm sorry, that was meant as a light hearted kick, not an angry one. But when reflecting on the average response you tend to get, it occurs to me that you're probably not used to it.
My qualm has nothing to do with the topic, but your words applied out of topic. If they weren't meant to be taken out of context, then I take back the kick. If not, I deliver another.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
In my experience, for mentally healthy people, imagination is not an obstacle. It's under control and is easily distinguished from reality. A mentally healthy person should not be able to mistake an imagination for a whole experience of reality, (like with all senses) without noticing it. Also, a mentally healthy person will not construct an entirely fake memories.
Besides that, I know that it is a mere claim, but I judge the verity of my experiences according to external evidence, like if I saw a ghost, then there should be at least one more person who saw it as well, otherwise I will not be totally convinced. I was lucky to have my perception confirmed that way many times. (though I never saw a ghost, it was just an example) This built my confidence in my own correct perception. I will not blame the imagination, every time the life shows that it's greater than textbooks.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Well, obviously a person who just had some horrific physically traumatizing accident, or has had a good amount of pain medication injected into their veins is not a mentally healthy person, at least at that point in time. And how do you personally know you're a mentally healthy person, being that you've claimed to have OOBE's? When was the last time you were mentally evaluated by a non-religious professional?
Of course, there are scientific criteria (according to Maslow, for example) signifying an optimal mental adaptation, and I think I meet most of them.
Anyway, if a professional would wish to examine my mental health, I'd gladly agree (it might be fun), providing that the consulting room will have at least two exit routes
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
That is most definitely not the point, the point is that all you have done is re-state the same extraordinary claim without supplying the appropriate amount of extraordinary proof.
Several people have replied that a more likely explanation is some form of trauma, hallucination, delusion or dishonesty.
You’ve said nothing to go beyond that and so, OOBE remains a claim without merit.
For example, Robert A. Monroe, after he started having his regular OOBEs, he immediately underwent all kinds of medical and psychiatric examination, because he was afraid that he's dying or losing his mind. He was found to be completely healthy in all regards and then lived a long and productive life.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I’m not trying to be particularly bull-headed about this, but haven’t you passed the tipping point for the anecdote-as-evidence fallacy?
The problem with OOBE and any supernatural phenomenon (of course) is that you have no useful proof. Because you have no useful proof you must fill your replies and arguments with as much verbiage as possible that seems evidentiary despite not giving us even a tiny parcel of new, measurable data.
In regards to the specific example you cited, it does not matter one wit the prestige, intellect or pedigree of a person who is merely found to not be ill after making a supernatural claim. There is no definition broad enough to allow that as proof; it is only useful to allow us the more obvious explanation of delusion brought on by illness.
After all, anyone can lie and be the very model of good health.
People making claims of OOBE should, after all this time, be able to offer some evidence if the even actually occurs. Someone could be very rich and very famous if it were reliably proved that they could project their metaphysical self away from their corporeal form – it would literally rewrite the fundamental understanding we have of human beings.
Yet no one is inclined to do so.
This is more of the same from those who believe what they like as opposed to those who accept what they can prove. I have not posted much on this from in the year and a half since I joined, but I have found that no matter how mundanely the supernaturalists here appeal to the existence of woo-woo, they all make personal appeals to being different and more reasonable.
You and your claims are not different and the degree of improbability of your claims is not reasonable.
Btw, I don't like to use the word anecdote. In my language it literally means a joke
You'd better think of a testing method, in which everyone involved are anonymous and it is all paid in advance, regardless of the result. I doubt that anyone wants to ruin their lives by publically proving that they can spy on other people. And scientists of course don't want to lose face by an unsuccesful research on such a controversial topic.
I'll do my best to generate some truly interesting brain activity
However, at least Wikipedia contains some interesting quotes about the research. This describes my opinion very well.
The first clinical study of near death experiences (NDE's) in cardiac arrest patients was by Pim van Lommel and his team (The Lancet, 2001),[39] a cardiologist from the Netherlands. Of 344 patients who were successfully resuscitated after suffering cardiac arrest, approximately 18% experienced "classic" NDE's, which included out-of-body experiences. The patients remembered details of their conditions during their cardiac arrest despite being clinically dead with flatlined brain stem activity. Van Lommel concluded that his findings supported the theory that consciousness continued despite lack of neuronal activity in the brain. Van Lommel conjectured that continuity of consciousness may be achievable if the brain acted as a receiver for the information generated by memories and consciousness, which existed independently of the brain, just as radio, television and internet information existed independently of the instruments that received it.[40]
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
[mod edit here and above for quote misattribution]
My apologies, I pasted when I should have cut. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to go back and fix that.
Fixed.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Yay! Thanks! No hard feelings guys!
That is a cop out though. It is easy to make it testable even if it is uncommon, and out of 6 billion people someone would be perfectly willing to go public and be tested if it had any validity. Especially something like OOBE, which seem to pop up fairly often. All of the supernatural claims are like this...everything is reasonable until someone designs a situation that makes it testable, then the excuses start to be trotted out. Not that it stops people, look at psychics and mediums. You can show a believer exactly what they are doing, educate people about the techniques, show them how a non-believer can duplicate the 'psychic' behavior...but some of them still swear their horoscope is tottally accurate.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
But it is not easy to make it testable, because until we know more about it, it's all about human factor. And human factor is unreliable. Finding a stable human factor is like winning a jackpot. Anyway, this kind of ability will likely be possible only on a fraction of population. There are billions of poor people who are busy with finding a food, and other billions who are busy working or doing business. There may be a global massive revival of psychic abilities, when the humanity will be freed from the repetitive drudgery at factories and the necessary means of living will be given out as a basic human right for everyone. Until then, good luck finding anyone who is a reliable psychic, and good luck with dragging them in front of cameras.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I dunno, I guess I just don't buy that when there are so many unreliable psychics who claim to be reliable but are proven to be false. If that many people are willing to be embarrased in front of the whole world knowing they will probably fail, I just don't buy it that the 'real' psychics are hiding in fear from some conspiracy. If I could woo-woo I would be terribly tempted to exploit it. Especially since many of them, statistically, would be desperate for the kind of money/attention it could bring. But maybe you are right, and every one of them stays silent out of paranoia but...anyway.
I see the links, I have even heard of some of the stuff. But, well, I know you already know how I feel. If anyone could do anything consistently and honestly none of us would be having this converstation. I find it highly suspicious that supernatural claims seem to be inversly related to the number of cellphone cameras in circulation, if you know what I mean.
But you have been here for a long time, again, I highly doubt I am giving you any criticism you have not heard a million times.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Please tell me you are not an atheist. If you are, please don't go around telling people you are.
Occham's Razor takes care of this stupid proposition quite nicely.
WHICH MAKES MORE SENSE TO YOU?
1. Our thoughts can be magically projected from our brains outside our bodies, meaning without any audible or physical or recordable communication?
OR,
OUR DREAM STATES, including our prior memories mix with our sleep state in which our eyes can be open and mix with that dream state?
If you believe in NDE or OBE you might as well believe that Jesus survived rigor mortis. You might as well believe that Thor makes lighting. You might as well believe that the Transporter from Star Trec is a possibility.
THIS JUST IN FROM CNN BIGFOOT IS REAL!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Leave Star Trek out of it!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I don't believe in OBE, I had one, and I'm not the only one. Research of Robert A. Monroe suggests that it is not what you say. As for Jesus, you should learn something about the concepts of mayavirupa, bilocation and overshadowing. The overshadowing story is also supported by the Gospel of Judas.
As for Thor, that's probably another name for the Jupiter or Zeus archetype. An archetype belongs to the area of psychology, not meteorology. By the way, my information is that Bigfoot is a rare kind of a himalayan bear, in that case it would be kind of real.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
when I had mono I had several occasions where I dreamt I was lying right where I was lying and someone came in the room and yelled at me for something and left. I could not distinguish whether it was real or not even after waking up. Fever helps. The classic dream in a dream. But when you are dreaming about where you actually are it makes it very difficult to tell the difference. I also can on regular occasion listen the radio while sleeping in the morning and incorporate the sounds into my dreams and I will remember what was on when I wake up. Not quite lucid dreaming, since I do not know I am asleep. But there is no spirituality involved. Totally repeatable and testable. Probably experienced by many others. It would be easy to think it was an OOBE. There is no psi power involved.
How can anyone here deny that? And this goes some way to prove his point, surely?
I personally want repeatable experiment. I spent my entire high school years trying to
flutter into the girls' dressing sheds and despite my most intense efforts, could not.
My friend Matthew Foster bought his father's hand drill to school to make a peephole and we got caught
and scored six of the best on each hand instead. Now that part felt like an OBE.
Now changing direction - surely to have an out of body experience you have to take on board the proposition that
humans have a soul or a spirit. Until some one shows me any slight proof that consciousness is anything
more than an OS running on my cranial motherboard, I'm going to be obliged to register OBEs as utter balls.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck