Is Juche a religion?
Offline Given the deification of North Korea's "Eternal Great Leader" Kim Il Sung and his precious "Dear Leader" Kim Jong Il, is Juche ideology therefore a religion? Can one argue that North Korea is a totalitarian theocracy?
Also, I have also read online that Juche is in some ways very similar to Christianity.
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Offline Jesus was a person, not a God.
Mohammed was a person, not a God.
Siddhartha was a person, not a God.
Abraham was a person, not a God.
First of all, Christian do think Jesus was God, second of all all the people listed wher prophets of God, and in a religion where a GOD belief is held.
Anyway, my lunch break is almost over, so for now refer to this:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17319
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Offline According to my dictionary, The New Oxford American Dictionary, religion is:
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power
(My underline).
The ideology in North Korea clearly fits this definition.
That is a quibble anyway, since they believe stuff way beyond the natural and empirical and rationally argued, which makes it reasonable to describe it as 'supernatural'. So it is using the same basic mind-set.
Presumably, Cpt_pineapple, you would also deny that many versions of Buddhism are not religions either (which I would at least partly agree with).
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline ragdish wrote:Jesus was a person, not a God.
Mohammed was a person, not a God.
Siddhartha was a person, not a God.
Abraham was a person, not a God.
First of all, Christian do think Jesus was God, second of all all the people listed wher prophets of God, and in a religion where a GOD belief is held.
Anyway, my lunch break is almost over, so for now refer to this:
Christians do think Jesus is God and similarly North Koreans think Kim Jong Il and his father Kim Il Sung are Gods. And in Juche, both are deified. So what exactly is your counter-argument here?
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Offline Actually, Captain, why can't it be a religion?
No supernatural entities.
That is, why can't state worship be a religion?
I wouldn't even call it worship, I call it obdience, and no not all obdience is religious.
What, so now a 13 year old girl idolizing Beyonce Knowles is religious in that regard?
According to my dictionary, The New Oxford American Dictionary, religion is:
Quote:the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power(My underline).
The ideology in North Korea clearly fits this definition.
That is a quibble anyway, since they believe stuff way beyond the natural and empirical and rationally argued, which makes it reasonable to describe it as 'supernatural'. So it is using the same basic mind-set.
Presumably, Cpt_pineapple, you would also deny that many versions of Buddhism are not religions either (which I would at least partly agree with).
I'm not saying they are rational or use empiracal evidence, I am saying that it is NOT a religion.
This is just a false equivocation [Religions hold a person as high authority, Juche does the same, therefore Juche is a religion] that can be used to define pretty much anything as a religion [Religion involves organized structure, Doctors without Borders involves organized structure, therefore DWB is a religion etc...]
I like Dennett's definiton [paraphrased]: A set of practices or beliefs derived to please a supernatural being.
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Offline It's as much a religion as christianity is, and the jesus is just as fake too. It easily qualifies, else nothing does.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline Note that I emphasised superhuman.
The regard with which they hold the dead leader is not merely 'obedience', it really is a form of worship, by any reasonable definition of the term.
See this site which discusses this issue.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Note that I emphasised superhuman.
So? Kim Jong Il is clearly human.
Also note you left out:
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power especially a personal God or gods.
The regard with which they hold the dead leader is not merely 'obedience', it really is a form of worship, by any reasonable definition of the term.
Right then, I'll just regard anybody who idolizes anybody as "religious"
See this site which discusses this issue.
All they did is assert that it's socialogically a religion, with out laying out the defining criteria.
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Offline The reason pop culture worship doesn't qualify is many-fold: The number of people who worship a specific celebrity is low to begin with, and massively disorganised to boot. Coupled with a lack of any kind of church/mosque/etc. Add the fact that for most it is a fad as opposed to a permanent lifestyle. And finally think of how many celebrities continue to be worshipped a generation after they're gone, in combination with the other factors. How many 16 year olds worship Elvis today? I'd be surprised if there were any. North Korea however fits all the criteria.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline The number of people who worship a specific celebrity is low to begin
The number of people are irrelevant.
massively disorganised to boot.
HA!
Coupled with a lack of any kind of church/mosque/etc
What are the equivalent to those in North Korea?
Add the fact that for most it is a fad as opposed to a permanent lifestyle.
The length of adherence is irrelavent. Many people here are former Christians, that doesn't make Christianity any less of a religion.
And finally think of how many celebrities continue to be worshipped a generation after they're gone, in combination with the other factors. How many 16 year olds worship Elvis today? I'd be surprised if there were any.
Let me know if Micheal Jackson is still remembered 10 years from now.
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Offline Oh and in case you guys are wondering why I'm getting my panties in a bunch this has something to do with it:
"man is the master of everything and decides everything" is not a rational atheist statement.
In my view, these types of topics linger onto No True Scotsman terrortory.
It also degrades into a strawman as above. I never said that the ideology is rational [If you re-define religion to be anything irrational, then everybody is religious] or that it was an "atheist statement".
All I said is that it was a political ideology. I never said it was rational, I never said it was based on science or reason, I never said that it was an "atheist ideology", all I said is that it was a political ideology. That's it.
Also, people keep telling me: "Well, we don't think religion causes all the ills!" and then they go out of their way to re-define pretty much anything bad into a religion.
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Offline Kim's media calls him variously the "Guardian Deity of the Planet," and "Lodestar of the 21st Century." In 2002, Korean mass dances known as Arirang, featured 100,000 flag wavers (and was described in state media as the "greatest event of humankind." ) Many loyal Koreans bow twice daily to Kim pictures that sit alone on the most prominent wall of their homes.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline 1: Then all religions are cults, not religions. Either way, you lose.
2: HA! Yourself.
3: Every government building in North Korea.
4: The length of adherence is extremely relevant. Most christians have always been and always will be christians. Most starstruck fools get over it by 30.
5: Let me know if anyone under 20 gives a rats ass about him now, let alone in ten years.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline Oh and in case you guys are wondering why I'm getting my panties in a bunch this has something to do with it:
ragdish wrote:"man is the master of everything and decides everything" is not a rational atheist statement.
In my view, these types of topics linger onto No True Scotsman terrortory.
It also degrades into a strawman as above. I never said that the ideology is rational [If you re-define religion to be anything irrational, then everybody is religious] or that it was an "atheist statement".
All I said is that it was a political ideology. I never said it was rational, I never said it was based on science or reason, I never said that it was an "atheist ideology", all I said is that it was a political ideology. That's it.
Also, people keep telling me: "Well, we don't think religion causes all the ills!" and then they go out of their way to re-define pretty much anything bad into a religion.
No one is even attempting to re-define anything bad into a religion. The Rwanda genocide was based on historical ethnic hatred between Hutus and Tutsis. Religion was not the trigger here. And I'll be the first to state that yes, atheists can be irrational too. Hell, atheists get drunk and stupid at parties. Atheists get into fights. Atheists cut people off and take the coveted parking spot at shopping malls. Atheists watch and enjoy Harry Potter flicks. And I can rattle off a whole lot more but I digress.
Is there a distinction between a political ideology and a religious one? Cannot the category of political ideology also include the religious ones (eg. Islamism)? I'll grant that secular ideologies are of course distinct from the theistic dogmas. But that distinction is based on the latter's acceptance of the supernatural. Any political ideology or for that matter any social discourse which rejects scientific evidence or suspends physical laws on whatever grounds is embracing the supernatural. The religious extremists (eg. Christian fundamentalists, Islamists, etc..) are openly explicit about this. But this is also true for Stalinism, Nazism and other extremist totalitarian movements including Juche.
Stalinism rejected "bourgeous" facts such as genetics and the theory of relativity. Nazism was likewise because Einstein was a jew. But these are subtleties. Indeed it is the messianic character and deification of the leader or the party which form the theocratic core of these movements.
What is the most brutal totalitarian theocracy? What is worse than Nazism, Stalinism, Juche, Islamism, Dominionism, etc.. all combined? I think Ingsoc tops the bill.
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Offline Thomathy wrote:Actually, Captain, why can't it be a religion?
No supernatural entities.
Thomathy wrote:That is, why can't state worship be a religion?
Hey, answer this one, Captain:
What, exactly, is a god? Is there any reason that Kim Jong Ill can't be seen as a god by anyone?
And if he is, what does it matter if he is clearly human? The Christian god clearly doesn't exist. This seems to have little effect on the belief of the Christian god as existing. Further, if god is so poorly defined a concept, surely there is not reason that Kim Jong Il can't be a god and the Christian god can.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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So pineapple, what are the essential elements without which something may not be called a religion?
Seriously, all that you have given us so far are three posts declaring that you would require some element of the supernatural and that the Kim family do not have those.
If the above was actually true, then you might have something. However, from what I can google, it seems that North Koreans are raised from infants to believe that Kim Il Sung was not born but rather descended from heaven already an adult and arrived on the top of some mountain that was already believed at the time to be a holy place. Add to that that apparently, they are also required to believe that Kim Jong Il can control the weather with his mind.
That stuff sounds pretty supernatural to me.
Conversely, Xenu would not be supernatural and I don't know of anyone who does not consider Scientology to be a religion. Granted, that bunch of lunatics has never bothered to give the world a falsifiable description of a thetan but even so, the religion is grounded in a naturalistic view (a wrong one with a variant cosmology but even so...).
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."
=
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Offline I almost brought up scientology myself, but decided not to because it could have spawned a side discussion, and I'm having a hard enough time posting with the PS3 character limit as it is. But since you brought it up, I'll add my support to your statement.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline You'll excuse me for being a little picky about definition considering that in this thread:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/18185
Other people there were rather picky about my definitions.
Anyway, another reason I am being so picky, is that there must a clear distinguisher between a political view and a religious one.
For example, some say Marxism is a religion, yet the same people don't think that all Marxists are "religious" even if they support the ideas of Marxism.
Christianity is a religion, all Christians are religious, and if they adhere to the basic tenents [i.e Jesus etc...] then they are religious, regardless of how often they attend church etc...
It seems people are determining whether something is religious based on the actions, rather than the ideologies themselves. A set of beliefs cannot be religious for one person, and not for another.
Here is my definition:
Religious: a belief or system that involves the supernatural, such as God, karma etc....
Secular: A system or belief that is derived without invoking the supernatural*
*This "system or belief" need not be rational.
For Scientology, I don't know much about their teachings, but it is my understanding that they believe that we are immortal immaterial souls, and ergo it invokes the supernatural and is a religion.
If a system just preaches that we were genetically engineered from reptile overlords from planet Zyon in the Andromeda galaxy, then no it wouldn't be religious, it would be a Secular system, as Zyon would be natural and the reptile overlords would also be natural.
You guys seem to be equivocating "natural" with "rational"
9/11 conspiracy theories don't invoke the supernatural, yet they are still irrational.
As for Kim Jong Il, he can't be a God, seeing as he is natural, as per topic I linked to in this post, you should be careful as to how you define God.
As for the "supernatural" claims of Il such as controling the weather, I cannot determine if that is actually taught by Juche or that it just developed because Il supressed his people so much, they just made shit up about him, or if that claim is even true.
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Offline Given the deification of North Korea's "Eternal Great Leader" Kim Il Sung and his precious "Dear Leader" Kim Jong Il, is Juche ideology therefore a religion? Can one argue that North Korea is a totalitarian theocracy?
Also, I have also read online that Juche is in some ways very similar to Christianity.
It's just absolutistic thinking, which may be a bigger problem than religion.
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Offline You just don't get it. Just because YOU say he isn't a god does not make it so, any more than an atheist saying jesus isn't a god does not make it so. It's almost certainly true, but entirely irrelevant to status as a religion.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline Since they pray to him and think he can hear their thoughts...
The story of the Kims' descent is surrounded with mythology. Children in schools are taught that they came down from heaven, and were placed on the top of Mount Paektu, where they were transformed into human beings. At public events, songs are sung that depict the leaders as saviours of the country as well as of each individual citizen
(from wiki)
I'm going to call religion on this one.
Next.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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I would say it is a politicized religion, the same as how Nazi Germany ended up after they rose to power using the church, then the church went against them, and they then outright banned the church unless they had direct control over it.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Kim Jong Ill is a person, not a God.
It does not involve the supernatural. [It teaches that "man is the master of everything and decides everything"]
It is hence NOT a religion, it is a political ideology.
How many fucking times do we have to go over this?
Jesus was a person, not a God.
Mohammed was a person, not a God.
Siddhartha was a person, not a God.
Abraham was a person, not a God.
According to North Korean lore, Kim Il Sung is their immortal leader. He was said to have "walked on water". Indeed, he is deified by North Koreans. So you are quite fucking incorrect in stating that their ideology is devoid of the supernatural. Juche is divinely sanctioned by the "Eternal Great Leader" and his only begotten son Kim "Jesus" Jong Il continues to preach the gospel.
"man is the master of everything and decides everything" is not a rational atheist statement. And given that this statement was divinely sanctioned by the "Eternal Great Leader", it is quite similar to a statement from Christian Reconstructionism (a totalitarian Christian ideology):
"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"
Indeed, "man" is not the master of anything really. Ultimately it is the laws of physics that is the "master".
In societies that adopt totalitarian ideologies the distinction between political and theological religion is blurred.
Actually, Captain, why can't it be a religion? That is, why can't state worship be a religion?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."