Hello!
Offline Hi I'm a theist. More specifically I'm a Christian. I've come here to talk about God and may reasons for believing in him. I hope for many interesting discussions.
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Offline From what I understand it is incredibly unlikely that the universe could exist by chance, doesn't that mean that the universe was most likely designed.
What about the fine tuning argument.The universe has certain constants.
We don't know why the constants are the way the are. It would seem very unlikely that they would be that way by chance alone.
If the constants were at all different then life wouldn't exists.
Life does exist therefore it is likely that the constants came about threw a way other then Chance.
There is no scientific explanation about why they are the way they are therefor it is likely that God is responsible for making them the way they are in order to create life.
- How does something "intelligent" transcend this universe? The only place where we've ever observed intelligence is in animals on Earth. Intelligence requires a brain or some sort of a central processing system. Also, how did this God design the universe? Did he speak it into existence?
- Is there any additional evidence for this God's existence? I've seen this argument at least hundreds of times, and to me, it seems to be nothing more than the final, legitimate, God of the gaps. All you're saying is that we don't know the origin of the universe yet, therefore, God wins by default.
- It does not necessarily have to be a dichotomy between God and chance. Since we know virtually nothing about what happened before the Big Bang, there could be a non-intelligent process that we possess little knowledge about. As an example, evolution has allowed for the diversity of life, but natural selection, the main mechanism, is neither chance nor intelligent.
- We don't understand the universe well enough to state that this is only combination of constants that could result in life. Additionally, some scientists have theorized that the constants could be related in such a way that changing one necesitates a change in the others.
- Finally, why does the existence of life imply design? If, instead, this had been a universe with no life in it, why wouldn't that be designed?
I believe that the bible is written in human language, and human language is incapable of holding Gods full truth. Language is an imperfect method of communication, many words have multiple meanings, and no two people have exactly the same definitions. I believe that the bible is inspired by God and it may be contradictory in places, but I have never seen where.
Okay, thanks. Um, more specific questions, if you don't mind.
What do you think about morality in the Old Testament? What do you think about the scientific accuracy of the Bible?
Perhaps your not trying hard enough. Maybe if you were to pray to God he would help you understand.
God had a lot of chances to answer me during the few short years when I prayed almost every night and considered becoming a Christian. He never did.
It's too late now. If I'm going to hell, then so be it. Refer to my signature.
Perhaps all of those religions are really worshiping the same God and they just don't know it.
No.
Many of them worship multiple Gods. Many of their definitions of God are contradictory. Many of their scriptures condemn people to death for worshipping other Gods. Some religions even claim that the Gods of other religions are real, but are actually demons or 'bad spirits.' Even if there is only one God, clearly, not everyone is worshipping that God.
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
What about love. Can you see your loved ones love for you, or do you simply have faith that its there?
Nope, sorry, my reply is the same here. I might know that they love me. I might know that they don't love me. I might be unsure. I don't have faith that they love me.
Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be.
I assume what you meant was that God causing you to find a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity would be supenatural. After all, finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity by chance would not be a supernatural event.
I also consider ghosts and angels to be supernatural, but I'm still not sure how you're defining this term.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline That's what supper natural is? When something unexpectedly happens like meeting a celebrity? You mean that's not just chance or coincidence? Loosing your keys, that's normal! Finding money! That's supper natural?! You'll have to excuse me for the repetition, I was hoping it might seem less absurd! I'm hoping for some supper natural! It's like a totally new and green reinvention of supper, naturally!
BigUniverse didn't express the point very well, but she stated, "Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural." I'm pretty sure she meant that it would be supernatural IF it wasn't a coincidence.
Yet how do you know that the distinction is created by anything but human error? Do the feelings these people have in their hearts really differ at all?
Undoubtedly, people in various religions will experience similar emotions while worshipping their respective Gods. But, this doesn't mean that they're worshipping the same God.
Yet to have faith in my boyfriend's love I have faith that by boyfriend exists as an entity.
Do you not know that he exists because you can see him, hear him, touch him?
That he has a mind and a heart, and were it is possible to observe the affects of the mind threw science it is not possible to observe the mind it self.
Our consciousness, personality, memories, etc. are products of the brain. It is possible to observe the brain.
What is a 'mind?'
How is my faith that my boyfriend exists as more then just a clump of cells any different then my faith that God exists as more then just an idea.
I'm not sure what you mean by "exists as more then just a clump of cells."
Also, it'd probably help you to know, that if you had typed "atoms" instead of "cells," I would have replied that your boyfriend IS entirely made of atoms.
Edit: Also, see here: Doesn't everyone take things on faith?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline You don't need faith to know that a human being is more than just some 'clump of cells' - humans are very complex structures of cells, bones, blood vessels, etc, organized in a very special way that allows us to move and display all the things we associate with brain activity. You just have to observe.
'God', on the other hand is not directly observable, so we have no obvious way to see that it is anything more than an idea.
We can observe the broad operations of the 'mind', as displayed by patterns of brain cell activation in living persons, using brain scanners, so we have no need of 'faith' to accept that the mind is a function of the brain. The detail we can observe grows as the equipment continues to be refined.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Hi, BigUniverse,
It's pretty clear that you've been given some arguments to try out and think about, and I encourage you to do so. Both from your pastor, and people you know, and from some of the people here.
There's a lot of material to go through with things like the fine tuning argument. When you dig a little deeper, you'll probably notice that there's more to these arguments than it first seems.
I strongly encourage you to defend the side of theism to the best of your ability. You should know exactly how and why Christian arguments for God are made the way they are (the field is called "apologetics" ) and how to dissect other people's arguments. It's a fun sport.
Until you're familiar with the arguments, it may seem like you're getting barraged with strange questions, but don't worry, it will become clear soon enough.
Welcome to the forums.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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Hi!
Young Earth or Theistic Evolustionist?
Coke or Pepsi?
Male of female?
What side of the canoe do you paddle on?
Did god put you up to this?
About your first question I'm not quite sure. I guess I tend to take a less then literal view on many parts of the bible, but I except that I might be wrong in my reading of it.
I like pepsi
I'm Female
I paddle on the side closest to my cooler full of pepsi.
What is an agnostic theist deist?
Maybe, its kind of hard to say exactly what is or is not Gods doing.
Are you saying that you received instructions but they were vague, or that you're not certain you received instructions at all?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Hi, BigUniverse, welcome to the forum!
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Also, due to constantly arguing with each other, people on this website can get pretty aggressive and rude at times, so be ready for that.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I'm saying that God often influence the world in very small ways and that sometimes it's difficult to say which things are a result of his will.
You mean like when a train derails and everyone on board dies screaming that probably isn't god's will, but if someone is thrown from the train at the last minute and happens to only be horribly injured then that probably is god's will?
What are some things that are definitely god's will?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Thanks for the welcome! Don't worry I'm not easily offended.
If you are willing to answer question please tell me why it is you don't believe in God.
A Train derailing may or may not be Gods will, and a person surviving a derailed train may or may not be Gods will.
Loving you neighbors is definitely God's will.
Loving your neighbour is pretty ambiguous. Why do the train derailment and the survivor fall into the indeterminate category, while "loving your neighbour" in its varied forms falls into the definitive category?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Because loving your neighbors is in the bible, while the bible says nothing about trains.
That's funny. There are lots of things in the bible surely you don't believe all of them, so how can you say that's your standard for determining what is god's will?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
I believe in God, but don't follow a religion and I'm not completly sure
I believe that the bible is inspired by Gods will.
That means that the things in the bible must be Gods will at least originally.
Perhaps some of the things in the bible have been corrupted over the years by errors or miss translations, or simple misinterpretations.
So the question I must ask my self is how do I know what things in the bible are really Gods will, and how I am supposed to interprete those things.
The answer is that I have to use my best judgment, and the judgment of other people who I trust.
I also beleive that God will help guide me in this quest.
What kind of God do you believe in? (is it Loving, just, all powerful, etc..)
Why dont you follow religion?
If you're guided by god's will, and you use your judgment to determine what is god's will, then aren't you just doing what you want to do?
If your best judgment is reliable enough to accurately estimate what's in the will of the all-mighty creator of the universe then why isn't it reliable enough to guide your life by itself? What's the point of having the bible if instead of using the bible to tell you what's right, you use your own sense of what's right to tell you what should be in the bible?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
I don't just use my judgment to determine Gods will. I use my judgment and the bible. I believe that the bible contains Gods will, and I try my best to understand that will over my own. Their are some things I believe are Gods will which I don't necessarily understand. I believe that God feels homosexuality is wrong. I don't understand why that is, but because that is Gods will I also believe homosexuality is wrong. If it weren't for the bible I wouldn't feel that way therefor it can be concluded that I am not just following my own will in my interpretation of the bible.
The bible doesn't just say that homosexuality is wrong. The bible says that homosexuals must be killed.
Do you believe that homosexuals must be killed?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Haha.
I'll try my best.
The most important reason why I don't believe in God, by far, is the lack of evidence. For as long as I've been alive, I've seen neither convincing arguments nor empirical evidence for the existence of something like God.
Of course, it depends on the definition of God. I think it's definitely possible that Cpt_pineapple's God, a kind of hands-off intelligent force behind the origins of the universe, exists, but I still don't support it for the reasons I've stated above. On the other hand, the gods of specific religions, including Christianity, become progressively dubious as more unjustified and, sometimes, incoherent and contradictory characteristics are attached to them. So, maybe, I'm more of a weak atheist or agnostic (if you prefer) with the deist's God and more of a strong atheist with Gods of specific religions. But, I don't really like that phrase either because nothing is 100% certain except that I think and I exist. I'd rather just say - I don't believe in God, and I think it's a lot more likely that no Gods exist than some God exists, but I could be wrong.
I also take issue with many terms that theists tend to throw around, especially 'faith' and 'supernatural.'
Now, when I say faith, I'm referring to "belief without evidence." By this definition, faith seems to be nothing more than an admittance of ignorance and a firm conviction in spite of it. Sometimes, I hear theists stating that faith has to 'supplement' evidence, but this doesn't make any sense to me either. If there is enough evidence to support a claim, then you don't need faith.
Supernatural is defined simply as "beyond natural." The only reliable ways by which we know how to explain reality are our logic and our senses. If 'supernatural' is defined in such a way that renders these methods useless, then it is literally defined as 'unexplainable' or "impossible to understand.' Thus, I have a very hard time taking any 'supernatural' claim seriously. The kicker is that if it could be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that God existed and if it was possible to perceive and understand God, then he wouldn't be supernatural.
Yep, that's it in a nutshell.
If you want learn more about our position, you can try:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/rrs_authors
For maximum mileage, I suggest Hambydammit, Deludedgod, Rook Hawkins, and Todangst.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
My pasture told me that because of Jesus's Sacrifice everything written the the old testament was no longer valid. He told me that while the things it said were wrong were still wrong in Gods eye they no longer needed to be punished by death because Jesus Christ had already died for our sins.
Could you ask your Pastor (not pasture) why anything two adults do together in bed is any buisness of his/yours/or mine? It's not J.C.'s buisness eather and if your god doesn't like homosexuals why does he make so meny. Don't give me any crap about free will; no one chooses to be gay any more then you chose to be female. It is the way they and you are born.
btw when someone on this site asks what side of the canoe you paddle on, they are asking if you are gay or straight.
Could you ask your pastor to explain the First commandment; "Thou will have no god before me." That is in plural form no matter wha translation you look at, what other gods is your god worried about? Now don't let him palm you off with some crap about False gods or false prophets that's the SECOND commandment and I am only asking about the FIRST. What other gods is your god worried about?
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
That's a little convenient but I suppose you have to say something. It's not like you could go around murdering people. The old testament contains around 360 prohibitions. Since all of those things are still wrong I'm assuming that you don't wear tattoos, eat shrimp, pork or rare meat, wear polyester-cotton blends, seed your lawn with a grass mixture, or get your hair cut.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Everything is Gods business isn't it. I mean he created everything. If he want people to do things his way shouldn't he have the right?
I know what was meant by the canoe question. I was trying to make a joke.
As to the last part how do you know that People Choose to be Gay or strait? I've herd that the studies done on this were fabricated for political agendas. Why should I trust what you say when all the people around me say differently?
Welcome to the site!
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Maybe their was a reason for all those 360 things, even if their isn't a reason anymore. I didn't think polyester existed by then, or lawns as we know them today. Could you give me the specific bible verses that refer to these things.
Thank you!
There is no god, I deal with real people not fairy tales. What people do in the privacy of their own homes is no ones buisness but their own. People do NOT choose to be gay or straight, male or female, white or black or pink, it is how we are born. AS for why should you trust what I say vs. what other people say; you shouldn't blankly trust anyone; go find out for yourself.
We have gay people on this site. Let us both ask them this simple question. DID ANY GAY PEOPLE HERE CHOOSE TO BE GAY OR WERE YOU BORN THAT WAY?
I personaly am straight, white and male, I didn't choose it but that is just how I was born.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
All of that is in Leviticus 19. I thought you said that you read the bible. So if it's something that homos want to do like fuck each other in the ass then it's still wrong, but if it's something you want to do like eat at Joe's crab shack or go to the Hair Cuttery then there isn't a reason to say it's wrong anymore. This is just about what you agree with. If you agree with it then it's from god, but if you disagree then you just ignore it, or say that maybe god said it but he didn't really mean it.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Why? Why does he have the right to tell everyone what to do?
Edit:
Do you accept that there is homosexuality among other animals?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Welcome to the site BigUniverse. I hope you enjoy your time here, even when the discussion becomes heated
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa..
whoa.
political agendas?
...really?
...
Okay, do you like liver and ketchup, with spoiled eggs? I mean sure, you could develop a..taste for it, but it would still be terrible.
In the same manner, I could develop a taste for women. I have been involved with girls before, and let me say that it is just not my thing. I can physically get it on, but it is purely mechanical.
It is NOT what I prefer. Not what I am oriented to.
I want to repeat what was said above by another poster to encourage an answer to this: Do you accept that many other animals than humans are also gay? If so, are these animals making political statements?
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
@ClockCat
for posterity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."
Welcome BigUniverse,
There are many things in life that one could believe in but doesn't it make more sense to believe in the things that are time proven and tangible?
If you're going to believe in god you shouldn't stop there. Invisible Pink Unicorns/Dragons/Flying spaghetti monsters/Russell teapot, etc await!
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
Isn't the whole universe empirical evidence for the existence of God?
The bible isn't contradictory. The bible describes God in the way God wants us to understand him. If you study the bible more you would understand him better.
There is only one God what ever he is called.
You have to have faith in some thing in order for the world to make any scene at all. For instance if you don't have faith that you exist then there wouldn't really be any reason for you to do anything at all. If you didn't have faith that the scientific method helped peoples understanding then you probably wouldn't trust cars, or computers. If you didn't have faith that most chairs can hold your weight then you probably would never sit down.
That isn't how I define supernatural. To me supernatural is that which is beyond the realities of our everyday existence. To me this would include things like ghosts, or angels.
You make and interesting point and I've spend some time thinking about it. I've come up with three possible option.
1) All 360 things are still wrong today, and the people who are doing those things are sinning.
2) Some of those things are still wrong today, but others are no longer relevant. If this is the case it would seem impossible to tell which things are still Gods will and which things aren't.
3) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). Because Jesus has fulfilled the Laws of the old testament we no longer need to. So none of the 360 things are still relevant today.
The first option could be true, but even if these rules were relevant in the past I can't see how they are relevant to the present. The second option as you have pointed out is arbitrary and therefore it is unlikely to be gods will. It would make more sense that Jesus updated the old rules with his coming, and that all the laws of the Old Testament are now obsolete. Therefore I believe that it is no longer Gods will that homosexuality should be punished by death. I will talk to my pastor about this next Sunday maybe I'm still missing something.
How?
Do you believe that the Bible is infallible? Or, do you believe that the Bible was "inspired" by God, but written by humans and thus, flawed?
I've read most of the Bible. If there's something I don't understand, tell me.
Yeah, I know you only believe in one God. You're a Christian. I'm not.
See, I wrote:
"So, maybe, I'm more of a weak atheist or agnostic (if you prefer) with the deist's God and more of a strong atheist with Gods of specific religions. But, I don't really like that phrase either because nothing is 100% certain except that I think and I exist. I'd rather just say - I don't believe in God, and I think it's a lot more likely that no Gods exist than some God exists, but I could be wrong."
There are many God beliefs. There are billions of people that claim they or their religion possess knowledge of the true God(s): pantheists that equate God to the laws of the universe, polytheists that believe in a God who is a giant muscular guy with a hammer. Obviously, I can't take the exact same position on so many different claims, so I was explaining my position.
I don't have faith that I exist. I must exist because the very statement, "I don't exist," is incoherent. It is entirely possible that I am a brain in a vat or a prisoner of the Matrix, but, regardless of the actual circumstances, I would still exist in some form or another. As for your claim that I would have no "reason" to do anything, my response is that what is necessary to motivate us to do things is an entirely human concept and subjective. Heck, I went to Coldstone Creamers today and got a, "Love It," size Founder's Favorite even though I don't believe in God. Why? Because I like ice cream. Therefore, I eat ice cream.
I know not if this earth on which I stand is the core of the universe or if it is but a speck of dust lost in eternity. I know not and I care not. For I know what happiness is possible to me on earth. And my happiness needs no higher aim to vindicate it. My happiness is not the means to any end. It is the end. It is its own goal. It is its own purpose. - Ayn Rand
Also, I don't have faith that the scientific method helps people. I know that the scientific method helps people. The fact that cars and computers exist is evidence that the scientific method helps people. Cars and computers are products of observation and experimentation. I trust cars because I know they work. I trust computers because I know they work. I don't have faith that most chairs can hold my weight either. I know through experience that most chairs can hold my weight. If every chair you ever sat in collapsed, would you have "faith" that most chairs can hold your weight? Probably not.
Believing in something based solely on faith is almost an oxymoron. That's like saying you believe in something because you don't have a good reason to believe in it. If faith is a good reason to believe in something, then you're justified in believing almost anything.
What is "the realities of our everyday existence?" How does something go "beyond" it?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
From what I understand it is incredibly unlikely that the universe could exist by chance, doesn't that mean that the universe was most likely designed.
I believe that the bible is written in human language, and human language is incapable of holding Gods full truth. Language is an imperfect method of communication, many words have multiple meanings, and no two people have exactly the same definitions. I believe that the bible is inspired by God and it may be contradictory in places, but I have never seen where.
Perhaps your not trying hard enough. Maybe if you were to pray to God he would help you understand.
Perhaps all of those religions are really worshiping the same God and they just don't know it.
What about love. Can you see your loved ones love for you, or do you simply have faith that its there?
Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be.
Having faith in your girlfriends fidelity is not the same as having faith in your god. I hope you can understand the difference.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
If Jesus changed the rules then how do you know that he didn't change the rule about homosexuality being wrong at all?
Are you kidding? The first sentence in the bible is wrong. It says in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth. The earth is only 4.5 billion years old, it obviously wasn't there in the beginning. You don't need a pastor to tell you that.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
The Bible is riddles with contradictions and unnecessarily confusing stories and claims. This is what one one expect from anything written down by human beings. AGod would surely have the ability to make sure it was written down, translated, and copied far more clearly and consistently than it has been, rather than just leave it to the error-prone human mind.
If it requires careful interpretation to understand, then there is no way to know whether any given piece of writing is 'genuinely' inspired by God, or whether any writing anywhere is - any decision that an idea, whether written down or not, is 'truly' a communication from God, still relies on human judgement, which is inevitably fallible.
Genesis is not consistent with what we have come to understand from careful and long study of the world and the wider universe.
Whatever the likelihood of the Universe existing, the same arguments must apply to any creator if such a creator is imagined to be an intelligent super-powerful being, so 'God' just doesn't work as an ultimate creator of everything, since nothing can create itself.
The Ten Commandments are proof that the Bible is not a wise moral guide, since they include minor things like "covetting your neigbor's wife and other property", while omitting serious things like rape, torture and slavery.
The Biblical God has nothing going for it, either as an explanation of existence or a moral guide.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I don't understand what BigUniverse is trying to say - even if we accept her premise that the Universe was not the result of 'chance' (which I agree with, mind you), that doesn't necessarily imply 'design', either. There are more than two options. For example, if I'm on trial and the prosecutor cannot prove me guilty of a crime, it doesn't necessarily follow that I didn't commit a crime - it's just outside of the scope of the ability of the person at the present point in time to make their case. Good thing there isn't double jeopardy.
The Universe didn't arise through chance, BigUniverse - but we aren't completely sure about how it did arise. Positing a God to 'create' the Universe in some unidentified manner for some unidentified reason doesn't actually answer anything - it's a lazy copout. Say it with me, darlin': I DON'T KNOW. It's OK not to know - it's OK to say we'll know more in the future. The only invalid answer is an obvious lie, which I regard as the statement that the Universe was designed by an omnipotent God that chooses not to show itself.
"Like Fingerpainting 101, gimme no credit for having class; one thumb on the pulse of the nation, one thumb in your girlfriend's ass; written on, written off, some calling me a joke, I don't think that I'm a sellout but I do enjoy Coke."
-BHG
Because god is make believe. Further, you know god is make believe.
The emperor has nothing on... and you know it...
Respectfully,
Lenny
"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush
I am a bit late in to this conversation, but hey, welcome to the forums.
Since you have already opened the topic up with your desire to talk about god and the many reasons for your belief in him, could you provide those reasons please. If so, could you provide a possible way to prove these reasons with a fairly high degree of probability that it is YOUR god that you believe in and not some other god, deity, demi-god or natural cause?
What about the fine tuning argument.
The universe has certain constants.
We don't know why the constants are the way the are. It would seem very unlikely that they would be that way by chance alone.
If the constants were at all different then life wouldn't exists.
Life does exist therefore it is likely that the constants came about threw a way other then Chance.
There is no scientific explanation about why they are the way they are therefor it is likely that God is responsible for making them the way they are in order to create life.
Please point some of them out to me.
It's just that I'm not sure weather the bible is contradictory or not. Because the bible is written by humans in human language I don't see why it can't be contradictory, but I am not personally aware of were it contradicts itself in a way that can't be explained by different readings.
It isn't because only believers that can have access to understanding. Any one can if they just let God help them understand. It isn't about his belief or lack of belief. God exists weather you believe in him or not and if you let him he will help you understand.
Yet how do you know that the distinction is created by anything but human error? Do the feelings these people have in their hearts really differ at all?
I have faith that my boyfriend loves me. There is a different between having faith in a person and having faith in God. Yet to have faith in my boyfriend's love I have faith that by boyfriend exists as an entity. That he has a mind and a heart, and were it is possible to observe the affects of the mind threw science it is not possible to observe the mind it self. How is my faith that my boyfriend exists as more then just a clump of cells any different then my faith that God exists as more then just an idea.
Those things may not be supernatural themselves, but the more unlikely they are the more likely that they were caused by some intelligence. My definition of supernatural would seem to be flawed, I will have to rethink it.