Primum Movens

Syphro
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Primum Movens

As an atheist/ignostic I have always wondered what the primary cause of the universe could be (assuming it's finite) in a scientific plausibility.

I personally think it was a chance, but I haven't completely shed the thought of an unmoved-mover.

Your thoughts?


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It's an arbitrary stopping

It's an arbitrary stopping point on the road of infinite regression.


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Syphro wrote:As an

Syphro wrote:

As an atheist/ignostic I have always wondered what the primary cause of the universe could be (assuming it's finite) in a scientific plausibility.

I personally think it was a chance, but I haven't completely shed the thought of an unmoved-mover.

Your thoughts?

An atheist that believes there could have been an 'unmoved-mover'?  Not entirely sure what that means.  The cause of the universe, and we haven't established -if we can- that whatever existed before the Big Bang actually required a cause, was not merely chance, 'least not in the common sense of the word.  It's almost meaningless to speak of chance since the universe does exist.


 

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"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Syphro wrote:As an

Syphro wrote:

As an atheist/ignostic I have always wondered what the primary cause of the universe could be (assuming it's finite) in a scientific plausibility.

I personally think it was a chance, but I haven't completely shed the thought of an unmoved-mover.

Your thoughts?

What reason would anyone have to consider an unmoved mover? It just makes no sense.

Also, the opposite of magical creature isn't "chance". It's "I don't know", and not knowing is different than thinking you know exactly what it was (ie "chance" ).

 

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Thomathy wrote:An atheist

Thomathy wrote:
An atheist that believes there could have been an 'unmoved-mover'?  Not entirely sure what that means.
 

If causality is the nature of the universe, then the cause of the universe must be seperated and completely unnaffected from it's result. This was Aristotle's ontological argument. However, I have long dismissed the idea of a god detailed in any religion.

It doesn't affect my life, but I am interested in what answers fellow atheists can submit.

Thomathy wrote:
It's almost meaningless to speak of chance since the universe does exist.

I suppose, but then I could ask how many times that it has tried to exist, if such a thing can occur.


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Syphro wrote:I suppose, but

Syphro wrote:

I suppose, but then I could ask how many times that it has tried to exist, if such a thing can occur.

The universe doesn't 'try'.  You should not anthropomorphise it.  As to how many times a universe has existed, once that I know of.  I'm not sure you'll get an answer other than that or, 'I don't know.'  It's okay not to know.


 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Syphro wrote:I personally

Syphro wrote:

I personally think it was a chance, but I haven't completely shed the thought of an unmoved-mover.

Your thoughts?

My first answer is always I don't know, but if I had to guess, I would wager that it's neither.

If, by unmoved-mover, you're implying something with intelligence, like a deist's God, I don't think it has to be dichotomy between chance and an unmoved-mover. It can be a determined, natural process like evolution that we don't yet know about.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Syphro wrote:If causality is

Syphro wrote:

If causality is the nature of the universe, then the cause of the universe must be seperated and completely unnaffected from it's result.

 

I notice that this was never demonstrated. Somehow, does anything that causes something else have to be separated and completely unaffected from the result?

It doesn't seem to follow.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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 I will give a simple less

 I will give a simple less thought out answer than everyone else...We don't know and probably never will. 

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and hang them up before the Lord
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Syphro wrote:Thomathy

Syphro wrote:

Thomathy wrote:
An atheist that believes there could have been an 'unmoved-mover'?  Not entirely sure what that means.
 

If causality is the nature of the universe, then the cause of the universe must be seperated and completely unnaffected from it's result. This was Aristotle's ontological argument.

That is a completely unnecessary requirement.

The inability of the Greeks to come to terms with systems where the flow of cause does indeed loop-back and effect the outcome, a fundamental aspect of modern science, especially of biology, as well as their problems with infinite convergent sequences (Zeno's Paradox), or even irrational numbers, disqualifies them to be treated as authorities on anything technical. 

Quantum Theory strongly suggests that there truly is a fundamental randomness at the heart of reality, or at least something virtually equivalent, such as an indefinitely large number of interacting fundamental bits of reality, whose individual trajectory, like that of an individual molecule of oxygen in our atmosphere, is as close to being unpredictable as makes no difference.

This ability of 'determinism' to give rise to effective unpredictability, whether by such mechanism as just described, or by more specifically 'chaotic' feedback systems, is yet another thing 'traditional' philosophy and metaphysics has yet to come to terms with.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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Talk of an 'unmoved-mover'

Talk of an 'unmoved-mover' and referencing Aristotle points to someone who needs to update his ideas by a few millennia.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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OK Syphro, could you

OK Syphro, could you speak to what your concept of an unmoved mover actually is?

 

I ask because the concept dropped into a discussion without some qualification is rather lacking in well, anything. Do you mean it to have been a conscious act on the part of a thinking being?

 

Consider the idea that the universe has existed for a finite amount of time. Well, I don't really see is as a shattering observation that something happened first. However, without some qualification, what was the thing that happened first?

 

On the face, that could have been a willful act of a conscious being, although that brings in a whole host of other issues that have already been pretty much beaten to death. It could also have been an unintentional act of a conscious being (what I call the “god farted” scenario) but that still leaves us with much the same problems.

 

A possible third option is the “shit happens” theory of creation, which is more or less in line with mainstream conjecture on the matter. The problem here is that it still doesn't say what happened or how anything else follows. Basically, in the big bang, what went bang?

 

As it happens, the big bang/inflationary cosmology doesn't take us there either. Really, all that that gives us is an accounting for a body of evidence that the universe is expanding and getting cooler over time. At the extreme edge of cosmological thought, we have entities such as dark matter and dark energy which are largely placeholder terms for stuff that we have not found just yet but seem to be required in order to make the rest of the body of cosmological thought coherent.

 

They could be real things or we could be missing important information that would point us in some other direction. Absent direct observation, we don't actually know. Even if we did have that stuff nailed down, it still does not reveal the origin of the universe so much as how the universe has developed since it began.

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I doubt we will ever

I doubt we will ever know...and it isn't like it will likely ever matter, unless we figure out a way to make a new universe in a bottle or something.

 

Even the high end theoretical people don't pretend to "know" anything about cosmology for certain.

 

I do read about it though, just because 1) it just blows my mind to think about the forces at work 2) you have to have a basic understanding because it seems to come up so often with theists.  But I honestly don't pretend to understand what someone like Hawking is really talking about when I read a paper.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Well, in all honesty, I

Well, in all honesty, I would not recommend that anyone start by reading Hawking. He skips over so much in a desire to get salable prose that he really is all about how cool science is without actually covering the truly cool bits to any great level.

 

If you have not already read it, I would recommend that you try Simon Singh's book titled “The Big Bang”. Honestly, he starts the book in ancient Greece and it takes him about half the book just to get to the 20th century. Then he uses the other half to cover the most recent developments in some detail.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Well, in all honesty, I would not recommend that anyone start by reading Hawking. He skips over so much in a desire to get salable prose that he really is all about how cool science is without actually covering the truly cool bits to any great level.

 

If you have not already read it, I would recommend that you try Simon Singh's book titled “The Big Bang”. Honestly, he starts the book in ancient Greece and it takes him about half the book just to get to the 20th century. Then he uses the other half to cover the most recent developments in some detail.

 

Haha, that might be a bit more than I want to bite off Smiling

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.