Plato's Magic Circle

HisWillness
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Plato's Magic Circle

Let's say you come upon a tree, and you're the first person ever to do so. You name it "tree", and tell other people that you're going to call that thing "tree" from now on, so that they know what you're talking about when you say "tree". Easy enough, right?

Next, you notice the tree has a kind of round shape, like a sphere. So you call that "sphere", and let everyone know that the shape you're talking about is a sphere.

Then, once you've figured you're doing okay naming things, along comes Socrates. He asks questions like, "Is there a perfect sphere?" which is a fun idea, and makes everyone laugh, but you can't answer, because you're not a philosopher, you were just making up names for things so you could talk about them.

But Socrates continues. He establishes that because he can imagine a perfect sphere, that it is the "essence" of the sphere, the very thing that gives a spherically-shaped object its spherical-ness! Furthermore, these vague notions that you have in your head are the only truly important things in the world.

Socrates wanders off to mutter to himself more, and you imagine that the poor bastard must have hit his head particularly hard.

See, Socrates was going in circles. The way we name things is vague in the philosophical sense, so that when Plato's teacher tells us that there are "Forms" for everything, he's saying that our mental search heuristic is actually more precise and important than the class of objects itself.

That is, we apply a word like "tree" to a bunch of characteristics, so that we can communicate. We can identify things as trees based on a few vague characteristics, such that even though two trees of the same variety aren't the same, they can still fall into the category "tree". Even different species of tree are still trees. Such is our power of categorization that we can decide on a short list of attributes what something is or is not.

But what Plato presents us with may actually be worse than circular, as the process of making forms is a string of non sequiturs.

A) Human beings identify a sphere as "sphere", therefore 

B) A perfect sphere must exist as the model for our collective notion of one

isn't even close to rational. Longer forms of the implicit argument could be shown, but that's what it boils down to.

The Platonic forms are an exaggeration of our search heuristics: lists of attributes that vaguely define a category. As such, it's pure trickery to suggest that any category or sub-category could be described "fullly", or in accordance with its "essence" or "form" or any other euphemism for this process.

It's completely backwards, so I don't know why we have to continue to discuss it philosophically. Unless we cite "tradition" as a reason to do things.

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Hm. Interesting way of

Hm. Interesting way of expressing the concept.

I know I'm just restating what you just said, but I want to make sure I understand you fully:

As you've described Plato's idealism, it becomes glaringly apparent that Plato was exactly wrong. There is no ideal tree: there is, in fact, the concept of a tree sufficiently fuzzy, sufficiently imperfect, such that we can categorize all trees.

Any perfect tree could be only a model for itself. Would the Platonic tree look like a pine or an oak? It would have to look like both. Or, it must have indefinite lines that becomes specific only when a applied to an actual tree. So, the concept of the ideal tree is exactly wrong, and Platonic idealism itself is a failed metaphysics.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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nigelTheBold wrote:Or, it

nigelTheBold wrote:
Or, it must have indefinite lines that becomes specific only when a applied to an actual tree. So, the concept of the ideal tree is exactly wrong, and Platonic idealism itself is a failed metaphysics.

Exactly. It's precisely backwards. It assumes a commutative relationship between the process of naming something and discovering what it actually is. No such relationship exists, though.

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HisWillness wrote:It's

HisWillness wrote:
It's completely backwards, so I don't know why we have to continue to discuss it philosophically. Unless we cite "tradition" as a reason to do things.

Most philosophy is discussed partly as an interest in the history of ideas, but mostly an exercise in critical thinking.
You were introduced to Plato/Socrates so you could refute them thus.

 


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Strafio wrote:Most

Strafio wrote:

Most philosophy is discussed partly as an interest in the history of ideas, but mostly an exercise in critical thinking.
You were introduced to Plato/Socrates so you could refute them thus.

 

So, when studying philosophy, it is not sufficient to simply learn the history, but to recreate the logical chain that stands between Plato/Socrates and the current state of philosophy?

No wonder there are few good philosophers today. That's tough.

 

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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nigelTheBold wrote:Strafio

nigelTheBold wrote:

Strafio wrote:
Most philosophy is discussed partly as an interest in the history of ideas, but mostly an exercise in critical thinking.
You were introduced to Plato/Socrates so you could refute them thus.

So, when studying philosophy, it is not sufficient to simply learn the history, but to recreate the logical chain that stands between Plato/Socrates and the current state of philosophy?

No wonder there are few good philosophers today. That's tough.

It's true, though. Philosophy, like science, involves the work of actually hammering out and testing ideas. The unfortunate thing about philosophy, though, is that it compares unfavourably to science with respect to its mechanism of feedback. In science, you can know fairly certainly that you got a hypothesis wrong. With philosophy, it can be up in the air for centuries.

 

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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I think that's why

I think that's why philosophers generally try to avoid "knowing truths" and concentrate on knowing the arguments instead.
Thing is, once they admit to themselves that they're looking at arguments rather than truth, it seems to make them a bit more complacent and more tolerant of sophistry if it's presented as an argument.
I'm personally planning to take the Wittgenstein path - claim that philosophy is just a load of tangled word play and try and forget about it all by immersing myself in an honest real world job! Eye-wink


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Can anyone say abstract base

Can anyone say abstract base class FTW.

Sounds made up...
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