So what's so wrong with Blasphemy day?

Eloise
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So what's so wrong with Blasphemy day?

Cpt Pineapple's thread pointed me to a blog where, evidently, Rook? is publicly reviling blasphemy day. 

In particular he indicts it as being  "[all] about ridicule and isolationism", so I just like to ask.. how is that? 

I mean, how is it not about, as intended, peaceful resistance by the secular community to a number of the more onerous and dare I say, just downright histrionic, mandates of religion?

How does it fail this mission? Anyone?

 

 

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ClockCat
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:3

 Personally, I think mockery promotes discussion.

 

The feeling that some subjects are taboo to think critically about, or even speak about without "reverence" because they are "sacred" is really just something I don't like.

 

 

 

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Sapient
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His problem was that

His problem was that blasphemy for the sake of blasphemy, or for the sole purpose of getting Christians riled up is in poor taste.  We both come from a "Blasphemy Challenge" background which had a specific purpose behind the blasphemy, and obviously accomplished the free speech aspect that "Blasphemy Day" was trying to achieve.

I personally support Blasphemy Day on the grounds that we should illustrate our right to free speech but I understand what Rook was saying.  With that said, I'm not sure if he got that there was more to it than simply uttering blasphemy.

 

For example: "The objective of International Blasphemy Day is to open up all religious beliefs to the same level of free inquiry, discussion and criticism to which all other areas of academic interest are subjected."

And the apostasy challenge aspect of Blasphemy Day is:

Stage One:  Become a Muslim
 

  1. Take a shower to cleanse yourself of your past.  (This step need not form any part of your video submission)
  2. Say "Ash-hadu an la ilaha ill Allah." - I bear witness that there is no diety but Allah.
  3. Say "Wa ash-hadu ana Muhammad ar-rasullallah." - And I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.
     

 

Stage Two:  Publicly and formally reject Islam (this is the fun part), do one of the following
 

  1. Declare "I associate other gods alongside Allah" or "Allah has a material substance or a shape just like other substances or shapes".
  2. An act of blasphemy, such as discarding, soiling or otherwise damaging a copy of the Qu'ran.
  3. Accuse a prophet of having any kind of imperfection or deficiency (intellectual, moral, physical etc).

All four imams (founders of the four schools of Islamic law), may that illiterate fool Allah have mercy upon them, agree that the apostate whose fall from Islam is beyond doubt must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation.  According to them, the hypocrite and heretic who poses as a Muslim but has secretly remained an unbeliever must also be killed.
 

Fear is the final stranglehold of religion.  Help break the cycle.

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Eloise
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Sapient wrote:Stage One: 

Sapient wrote:

Stage One:  Become a Muslim
 

Oddly, I think, this gives me reason to agree with Rook, did you mean to do that, Brian? I mean, why apostasise, what the heck will that achieve?

For me it's plainly and simply the matter that there shouldn't be secular acceptance, nor support, of laws or penalties regarding religious blasphemy. Not the least of all reasons for which is that religious penalties utterly violate secular law. It's no secular government's business to be sanctioning the breach of its own laws because some religious nutjob says so, it's just f'ken perverse, quite frankly.

So, personally, I believe a response to the Cartoon riots is well and truly, definitively, called for, I'd like to see it on target to achieve the rational ideal that motivates it but I'm almost convinced after just two posts that Blasphemy day isn't on target.. damn, damn, double Jesus damn and muhammeds dirty entrails.

 

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Sapient
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Eloise wrote:Oddly, I think,

Eloise wrote:

Oddly, I think, this gives me reason to agree with Rook, did you mean to do that, Brian? I mean, why apostasise, what the heck will that achieve?

Well it seemed to me through talking to Rook on the phone about moreso than his actual article that his biggest problem was that they seemed to be supporting blasphemy for the simple sake of blasphemy.  My point was that an apostasy challenge gives it actual substance, a mission or idea to use with a purpose.  It's not simply saying "God dammit" it's calculating an action of becoming a muslim and then abandoning islam thereby forcing muslims to kill you or they themselves risk damnation.  It makes one think about the ramifications of god belief moreso than if I said "fuck god."

 

Quote:
For me it's plainly and simply the matter that there shouldn't be secular acceptance, nor support, of laws or penalties regarding religious blasphemy. Not the least of all reasons for which is that religious penalties utterly violate secular law. It's no secular government's business to be sanctioning the breach of its own laws because some religious nutjob says so, it's just f'ken perverse, quite frankly.  So, personally, I believe a response to the Cartoon riots is well and truly, definitively, called for, I'd like to see it on target to achieve the rational ideal that motivates...

I agree with all of that.  I guess I want to seem supportive of something like Blasphemy Day.  I don't yet see enough reason to be against it.  Far too easy for me to say, "hello mcfly, we already did that at blasphemychallenge.com."  Instead I'd like to think we paved the way for them trying a new approach, there were hundreds of people that disagreed with the Blasphemy Challenge and I still think it was a great idea, there are bound to be people against Blasphemy Day.  At least we all agree it's nice that we live in a world where we can have those disagreements.  The important thing is for us to preserve that world, or better yet: proactively chase a world in which we can be more critical.

 

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Eloise
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ClockCat wrote:

ClockCat wrote:

 Personally, I think mockery promotes discussion.

 

 

The feeling that some subjects are taboo to think critically about, or even speak about without "reverence" because they are "sacred" is really just something I don't like.

 

 

 

Well Hell yeah, Clockcat. We should blaspheme every day, whenever we like and let em stick it.

It's that religions are so bent on imposing their will onto secular morality that makes it an imperative in need of promotion. It would be nice if the world didn't need a "day" where we're being encouraged to just not capitulate to madness. Every day should be a day where we don't capitulate to madness. But we've got religions lobbying secular governments for recognition of their insane decrees for rabid public hissy fits.

If they want a sanction from the general public on their side then they must pass the proper muster that all good secular laws have to go through: open, critical and candid discussion. And If it's not alright to think it's total bullshit and vote against it then it just can't be made law. They can't have it both ways. Either it can be criticised openly, or it can have no support from a democratic people.

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He's worried that kids will

He's worried that kids will use it as an excuse to piss on crosses or vandlize churches. And then when the media reports about it, atheist activists will complain that the media is portraying atheists as people who piss on crosses and vandilize churches.

 

 

 

 


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I agree with Capt (kinda of

I agree with Capt (kinda of an odd thing), blasphemy day sounds like a good idea, but in many ways it can go wrong so quickly. I take it has a day to show the ridiculousness of religion, however I personally believe that even though we have freedom of speech, it has to be tempered with the appropriate ideas behind the message you are trying to convey. I can see how this can go wrong as Capt. has pointed out, and with that said, if the message isn't conveyed correctly (say like how religious messages can be interpreted differently on a massive scale because it is designed in such away), that it will be conveyed as simply ill tempered, ignorant atheists out to piss off the religious folks. Which hey if that's the case great, but if the idea is to open up dialogue and try to dispel the myth of religion and the fear of which religion uses to control people, well then I hope that it's geared towards that, instead of trying to make it seem that all atheists are after is to piss off religious folks.

(still kinda of sleeping not sure if this makes any sense at this point......stupid night of parting up)


Hambydammit
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 I come down in the middle

 I come down in the middle on this, actually.  I agree with Rook that blasphemy for no purpose other than to be inflammatory is counter-productive.  There are atheists -- especially new atheists and teenagers -- who get "lolz" out of antagonizing theists, getting them angry, and making them look stupid.  The goal isn't to convert them to atheism.  It's to get laughs at someone else's expense.  I do not support such actions, even if it's true that the people they're ridiculing are stupid.

However, I think ridicule is a useful tool in situations where someone is trying to sell something ridiculous.  I'm reminded of a recent Hannity clip where Michael Moore exposes Hannity's ridiculous video of Cuban hospitals, where the camera is going through an empty, dilapidated, unused hospital.  (There are such hospitals in the U.S.)  After a good two minutes of dirty toilets and beds, there's about a ten second snippet of very ill Cubans in hospital beds.  They look like they're dying of a horrible disease.  After just long enough for very clever viewers to notice that the hospital rooms with patients are clean, modern, and well lit, we are taken back to the same footage we saw at the beginning.

It's a clear attempt to manipulate gullible viewers, and Moore does the appropriate thing.  He points out the scam, and then laughs at Hannity on national television.

So, ridicule is useful.

At this point, I neither support nor condemn Blasphemy Day because to be honest, I don't know enough about the intent of the people who started it, or the scope or constituency of the people participating.

As a blanket statement, I support constructive ridicule, denounce petulant childish ridicule, and readily admit that I'm not always able to spot the difference.

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ClockCat
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:3

Hambydammit wrote:

As a blanket statement, I support constructive ridicule, denounce petulant childish ridicule, and readily admit that I'm not always able to spot the difference.

 

 

All mockery of irrational ideas is constructive. If it isn't mocked, it is accepted.

 

Say I am in a class discussing religion. If I mock someone openly for the irrationality in what they say, it points out those flaws to others while at the same time being entertaining. Now that the flaws are identified, most sane people will look to avoid repeating them to prevent ridicule of themselves by society.


It also causes a lot of people that SHARED the irrational belief, to reflect on it. Or become outraged that someone spoke about a taboo subject. If they become outraged, it usually only alienates them further from the rest of the people in the class, and makes people not want to be associated with that.

 

 

Basically, religion has cornered the market on the "good guy" thing for so long through propaganda, a lot of people think things are sacred and/or taboo without even being a part of that religion. They don't even think about it, which leads to accepting it.

 

 

 

I have had people thank me for openly mocking people that condemn others on a daily basis. Most of the time these people are SURPRISED that someone would make fun of them for what they say, because it doesn't happen. Humor is a very important tool. 

 

 

I believe everything is open to being ridiculed. The world is an entertaining place, why deny that?

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Cpt_pineapple
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As someone who is known for

As someone who is known for snark, I can say that I don't think it's all that effective, it is however self-satisfying.

 

 

 


Eloise
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Sapient wrote:  It's not

Sapient wrote:
  It's not simply saying "God dammit" it's calculating an action of becoming a muslim and then abandoning islam thereby forcing muslims to kill you or they themselves risk damnation.  It makes one think about the ramifications of god belief moreso than if I said "fuck god."

So I figure the operating concept here is, then, the magnitude of the charge you're bringing on yourself? I'm not so sure it's so necessary to undergo a whole fake ritual in order to bring yourself under heavy religious charges. I mean you only really have to make a joke of some silly religious neuroses they're displaying over their deity or their books.

It seems to me, going to the extra trouble might be just for the sake of trouble, rather than for the sake of freedom of speech and thought. I mean does anyone actually want to have a right to declare fake loyalty to a religion, just so you can throw it off later, recognised for any practical reason?

Do you think this is meant to go toward paving the way for people to leave the religion if they so choose without fearing penalty of death? I suppose that would be a noble justification for seeking out such an extreme method of opposition.

 

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Sapient
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Eloise wrote:Sapient

Eloise wrote:

Sapient wrote:
 Do you think this is meant to go toward paving the way for people to leave the religion if they so choose without fearing penalty of death?

It could be.  I think everyones reason for doing it and the creators reason for issuing the idea could vary, that idea included.  When we created the Blasphemy Challenge we had many reasons, not just one. 

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Blasphemy Day is awesome.

Blasphemy Day is awesome.

 

Penn Teller > all