Can the existence of a god be scientifically proven?

ubuntuAnyone
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Can the existence of a god be scientifically proven?

When we begin to discuss the existence of a god, generally one of the first things that comes up, especially from theists, are arguments for the existence of a deity. Of the three classes, ontological, teleological, and cosmological, the latter two are the ones that are asserted as being "scientific" proofs. The arguments in and of themselves may be sound, but are they do not seem to be valid in terms of scientific hypotheses. But this may also play to the advantage of theists as well, as it seems to be the case that such things do not even fall into the realm of science, and therefore to attempt to falsify them scientifically is a categorical mistake.



A scientific hypothesis is an explanation in the form of an educated guess for a particular natural phenomenon. The hypothesis, then, inherently is testable given the nature of the phenomenon in question. Through inductive methods, the hypothesis is verified. Why it is certainly true that induction cannot prove anything beyond the shadow of a doubt, the conclusions are, nevertheless, quite certain. Another often cited criterion for valid scientific hypothesis is the hypothesis' falsifiability, popularized by Karl Popper. To be falsifiable, the hypothesis should have a means to show that the educated guess and its conclusions are false. Suppose one was to say, "All observed chicken eggs are white, therefore chicken eggs are white." This is a reasonable inductive conclusion based on the observations. To falsify the claim that "chicken eggs are white" one only needs to find an egg that is another color, such as a brown egg. This simple mode of deductive falsification helps buffer scientific explanations against unfalsifiable claims.



The recent fall of intelligent design was largely contingent upon the issue of falsifiability, and one can learn much from this. Intelligent design is but one of many sorts of teleological arguments. No one knows for sure how old such arguments are, as they date to antiquity. The modern intelligent design movement probably started with William Palley's teleological argument. Palley argued from analogy that design was an observable phenomenon based on the fact that if one were to find a watch in a field that one would not assume the watch to have showed up there by natural means. The opponents of design arguments, such as Hume, suggest that design may be a phenomenon, but one needs a basis to recognize it. Humans are the creator of watches, and therefore know a designed watch when one sees it, but humans, so it seems, are not the creators of the nature, but rather are bound by it. Hume suggests that detecting design from within the natural order is only possible from outside the order. The only way to suppose that some natural phenomenon has design, then, is to assign design to it arbitrarily.  The critics of intelligent design suggest that the proponents arbitrarily assign design to phenomenon, then use this arbitrary standard and prove it. This amounts to proving the assumptions, which is question begging.



Two recent books, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett attempt to grapple with the idea of religion and scientific evaluation of it. Dawkins takes a bottom up approach. He attempt pits the quote "god-hypothesis" against natural selection and asks which one provides a better explanation for the existence of life. In his "Ultimate Boeing 747 Gambit", Dawkins attempts show that a something more akin to natural selection provides a better explanation for the existence of life. I personally think Dawkins treatment of the whole thing is sloppy, but that aside, even if an argument for a designer was successful in defeating natural selection as an explanation, it in and of itself is question begging, as we've already established. On the other hand, there is Dennett's top-down approach. Dennett attempts to reverse engineer religion, breaking it down into smaller pieces, suggesting that the complexity of religion evolved from simpler ideas. Dennett's approach is more grounded, in that he starts with an analogy from evolution. He suggests that religions are similar to how certain wild animals have been domesticated for human purposes. The same, Dennett suggests, holds true in religion in that seemingly paranormal phenomenon evolved into religion. The problem with this is that it precludes, rather than concludes, religions are superstition. Under this paradigm, revelation is not a possibility, as many theists would posit it is. Without taking this into account, the Dennett's enterprise amounts to question begging again.



The problem with inductively proving the existence of a god has to do with the preeminence of a perfect being. A perfect being would be an uncreated creator god, which by definition exists independently of created time and space and therefore, so it seems, exists tautologically. What seems to be the case, then, is if one allows for such a god to exist, then approaches from this point of view will always prove to be true. Similarly, one cannot falsify it. But at the same time one cannot assume religion to be false, because this approach denies the possibility its truth, unscientifically. For these reason, it seems that teleological and cosmological arguments fall somewhere outside the realm of scientific inquiry.

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Ivon
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I've talked to so many

I've talked to so many people who look up at the sky and see how pretty the clouds are as their proof of god's existence. There are just some people that no matter how much proof you throw at them, thier belief is so ingrained that they'll never accept any argument against it.

Free your mind.


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Ivon wrote:I've talked to so

Ivon wrote:

I've talked to so many people who look up at the sky and see how pretty the clouds are as their proof of god's existence. There are just some people that no matter how much proof you throw at them, thier belief is so ingrained that they'll never accept any argument against it.

I've met atheists and theists this way.

As you can imagine, I think the debate over these two classes of arguements is psuedoscientific on both sides.

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Teleological and

Teleological and cosmological arguments are questions of natural theology. (Note the question-begging right in the name.) Natural theology starts with some of the same premises as science (we live in an observable universe, can can inductively create hypotheses that can then be deductively checked), but assumes a different epistemology than science: deductive reasoning and logic alone is sufficient to test truth-claims. I have never seen a valid defense of this epistemology.

Both teleological and cosmological arguments are completely outside science. Their composition is usually of the form, "Observation, non sequitur, false dichotomy," so I'd say they're even outside the realm of logic.

For me though, it's the lack of verified epistemology that does them in as valid philosophical propositions.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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nigelTheBold wrote:Natural

nigelTheBold wrote:

Natural theology starts with some of the same premises as science (we live in an observable universe, can can inductively create hypotheses that can then be deductively checked), but assumes a different epistemology than science: deductive reasoning and logic alone is sufficient to test truth-claims. I have never seen a valid defense of this epistemology.

Are you suggesting this is so because science invokes inductions?

nigelTheBold wrote:

Both teleological and cosmological arguments are completely outside science. Their composition is usually of the form, "Observation, non sequitur, false dichotomy," so I'd say they're even outside the realm of logic.

I think this is largely contingent upon what one does with the ontological argument, but as I mentioned of one posits this, then teleological and cosmological arguments become tautologies then too, as this is what the Scholastics in the Middles Ages did. The recent uses have been, as you put it, "Observation, non sequitur, false dichotomy" or question begging to one degree or another.

nigelTheBold wrote:
For me though, it's the lack of verified epistemology that does them in as valid philosophical propositions.

I don't really understand what you mean but a "lack of verified epistemology that does them in as valid philosophical propositions" Do you mind elaborating some?

 

 

 

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ubuntuAnyone

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

Natural theology starts with some of the same premises as science (we live in an observable universe, can can inductively create hypotheses that can then be deductively checked), but assumes a different epistemology than science: deductive reasoning and logic alone is sufficient to test truth-claims. I have never seen a valid defense of this epistemology.

Are you suggesting this is so because science invokes inductions?

Oh, not at all! Both science and naturalistic theology use induction in the formulation of propositions. They both use deduction to winnow those propositions. For naturalistic theology, they do this by simply checking the logic of the proposition against the existing ontology. As implied by the name, this foundation of this ontology is "god."

In the case of science, deduction is used to determine expected repercussions of the proposition, and figure out how to test that against reality. In this way, the propositions are not simply examined for logical viability, but for viability with respect to reality, as well. After the proposition has been tested against reality, it is then compared to the existing ontology. If there is a contradiction, both the new proposition and the old are then pulled out, and the whole deduction/testing round occurs again, this time with an eye towards resolving the contradiction.

In some cases, this means the old ontology is modified or thrown out. As the cliche'd example, there's general relativity vs. Newtonian laws. The classic view was modified to place restrictions on speed, mass, size, and so on.

Quote:

I think this is largely contingent upon what one does with the ontological argument, but as I mentioned of one posits this, then teleological and cosmological arguments become tautologies then too, as this is what the Scholastics in the Middles Ages did. The recent uses have been, as you put it, "Observation, non sequitur, false dichotomy" or question begging to one degree or another.

Exactly. I'm only passingly-familiar with the ontological argument, but from most formulations I've seen, it too follows this pattern, only from a philosophical rather than naturalistic viewpoint.

Quote:

I don't really understand what you mean but a "lack of verified epistemology that does them in as valid philosophical propositions" Do you mind elaborating some?

Sure. It goes back to the divergence of naturalistic theology and the epistemology of science. The propositions of naturalistic philosophy are not tested against reality, and are only verified within the context of the ontology itself. There is no attempt to limit all the very-human biases and limitations endemic to any purely-logical system. (This seems like a contradiction, but is not. Take Zeno's paradox, which I just brought up in another thread in similar circumstances.) This means the epistemology is flawed, as there is no way to test truth-statements outside of the basic criteria of logic, such as non-contradiction.

Since the epistemology doesn't seem sound to me, the resultant ontology is also unsound. I can't speak to the metaphysics of naturalistic theology, and won't pretend to. But I do have strong opinions about the epistemology and ontology.

Of course, I should admit my own bias: to me, it seems that the only workable and verified epistemology is science, and the scientific method is the only epistemological tool that has produced a verifiable ontology. This is related to another bias of mine, which is that the only ontology worth much beyond intellectual curiosity is that which models reality.

I hope this helps.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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nigelTheBold wrote:Oh, not

nigelTheBold wrote:

Oh, not at all! Both science and naturalistic theology use induction in the formulation of propositions. They both use deduction to winnow those propositions. For naturalistic theology, they do this by simply checking the logic of the proposition against the existing ontology. As implied by the name, this foundation of this ontology is "god."

Ok...I wasn't sure.

nigelTheBold wrote:

Of course, I should admit my own bias: to me, it seems that the only workable and verified epistemology is science, and the scientific method is the only epistemological tool that has produced a verifiable ontology. This is related to another bias of mine, which is that the only ontology worth much beyond intellectual curiosity is that which models reality.

I hope this helps.

Gotcha....I wasn't sure what you were getting at. Thanks.

The general impression I get from the philosophy of science is that it is justified pragamatically. I do not think a scientist woud attempt to verify a scientific epistemology inductively, as that would be question begging.

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”