Even if, then why?
Offline Hello there, everyone, I'm new.
I'm sorry, I'm sure this has already been discussed here, but I find that when diving into a new, already very active forum, it's usually just easier to start a new thread and get on with the ranting.
I'm an atheist through and through, and when agnostic people say to me "how can you be an atheist, we don't really know, do we?" my answer is always the same: even if, then why? Explanation to follow:
Even if we suppose there is a god ... hell, let's even presume it's a god of the old school abrahamic type ... then why worship the old psychotic bastard? That's the part I don't get. I'm fully aware of the fact that the human brain is quite capable of believing the most outrageous crap (the evidence of that is unfortunately all around us), but going from belief, or faith if you will, to worship is simply a non sequitur. A perfect being would not demand worship, that's the domain of demons and the like.
Considering what the world looks like and what happens in it daily (the ichneumonoid wasp is the classic example) , the only rational explanation is of course provided by science, but if you insist on believing in a higher power, why grovel before it? It's a conundrum. People who believe there's a deity controlling all of this should shake their fists at the sky, shouting "bastard!" at the top of their lungs rather than waste time, money and effort praising the old sociopath and trying to convert others into doing the same.
So there it is: even if there is a god, why worship him/her/it? And I'm afraid the "all bad things are of the devil" argument just won't cut it, since god is by all accounts omnipotent and has permitted the devil his various privilegies.
Sorry to be this obvious, but it feels so good to let off some of the gathering steam.
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I agree. I'm an atheist ( I used to be a Christian ) and I feel the likelihood of the Abrahamic God actually existing is about as probable as any of the other religions that Christians, Muslims, Jews dismiss out of hand.
Even if said being does exist I still find the Christian god to be repulsive and totally unworthy of my worship or admiration.
Welcome to the forum, Jarmir!
Hmmm, I hate this question.
There are very few atheists that would actually say they are completely certain that there is no God. This doesn't mean that they are contradicting themselves. Atheism never says that God absolutely doesn't exist, and there is no dichotomy between complete certainty and uncertainty. Do these people "know" that the Earth is round? Do they "know" that dinosaurs existed? We cannot be 100% sure of anything based on induction, but if these people were given the same terms to describe their belief on these topics, very few of them would say that they are agnostic.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Somehow I feel like my words would have more weight in various arguments if I, like you, had been a Christian at some point. Then I would have had a whole new arsenal, always beginning with "I used to be a Christian but I grew out of it". *Seething with envy*.
Truth is, when I was five or six years old I prayed to god once. It should come as no surprise that my wish, erm, prayer didn't have any effect, and that was it basically. As I got older I learned stuff. That put fact behind my opinion, and really, that's all there is to it. Only, for some people it appears that fiction is more believable than truth.
I'm a member of another forum, where I dare say every single member is a dear friend of mine, but they grow tired of my frequently recurring diatribes against religion in general and Christianity/Judaism/Islam in particular. It's not that they mind the opinion, just my somewhat inflexible attitude. There's one guy there who's vaguely religious, and he gets quite miffed when I say sorry, can't extend any respect until you provide at least a faint shred of circumstantial evidence. My thought then was that I'll keep badgering him, but relax a little bit by finding a place where these things are a central focus of discussion, just so that I can vent a little.
Any and all religious people out there, feel free to level your guns at me and try to convert me to the godly path. I'm in the mood for a good, civilised debate on the subject. Like the song says 'I've done it before and I know I can do it some more'.
Thanks for the welcome!
Ah, a very intelligent response. I agree. There's only a 99.9% certainty that there is no god, and it is also true that, philosophically speaking rather than scientifically, one could argue that dinosaurs never existed. But it doesn't matter. For dinosaurs there is evidence, for god not so much, and even this is moot. The point is that god can exist all he wants, and there is still no way I would worship such a sadistic, life-hating swine.
Now, science can't answer everything, so there's a miniscule chance that there is a god. He didn't create life on earth, that much we know. He didn't shape and design the life forms that exist on earth, that much we know. The only thing he could conceivably have done is create the spark that created the universe, but that's just the "god of the gaps" thing. God has been reduced and reduced and reduced over the last few centuries, so that it's now beyond all reasonable doubt that the Bible is an anthology of none too talented fiction and all he could possibly have been involved in is the creation of the universe. The universe is a big old place. Too big for a peripheral planet's accidental chemical reaction causing automated replication to be a part of the bigger picture. Therefore I am an atheist rather than an agnostic. Technically I'm the latter, but even if there is a god he has no interest in some crawling chemical anomalies on the border of a minor galaxy, and if he does, then he's no god, but the aforementioned sadistic swine with no place in any orisons of mine.
Powerful critter? Imaginable but unlikely. God? Not that I can see.
Exactly, atheism is not one stating the fact their is no god, the definition is that one doesn't believe in a god. Most athiests will never claim with 100% certainty their is no god, this is because it contradicts our belief in being intellectually honest, rational, and that we believe as best we can based on fact. God's non-existence is not a fact, therefor the rational athiest only argues why he doesnt believe in a god and weighs the evidence on both sides openly. This is what sets apart the rational athiest from the average theist, rational athiests dont claim to understand everything about the universe and what its doing here, theists do, hillariously because another man/men told them so in a book, quite rediculous indeed. Im reminded of a magnet on my sister's fridge with a picture of creepy christians staring at the sky quoting "Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who claim they've found it.
Welocome!
"Truth is, when I was five or six years old I prayed to god once. It should come as no surprise that my wish, erm, prayer didn't have any effect, and that was it basically. As I got older I learned stuff. That put fact behind my opinion, and really, that's all there is to it. Only, for some people it appears that fiction is more believable than truth."
I had a very similar situation.
I should point out that we have an advantage over former theists. Many times I've seen a theist discard a former theists position as simply getting mad at god and turning away from it. They can't do that if you never believed in any god at all.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Nah. The truly devout Christians have an explanation for everything. They would say about you (like they say about me) that I'm "backslidden" or "blinded by the flesh." As far as I know, my mother believes the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine, so no matter how much of a heathen I am for the rest of my life, the fact that I said magic words when I was ten means I'll be going to heaven. Even by the Christian God's ridiculous standards of justice, that ain't fair... but what are you going to do?
The big problem with Christianity is that it's designed to allow complete flexibility with inflexible loopholes. What I mean by that is this: No matter how logically sound your objection is, Christianity is designed so that the devout follower can come up with a feasible loophole that defies logic and reinforces his faith. If I say, "But... the problem of evil," a Christian can say, "Without evil, we couldn't know good." Or... some such nonsense. When faced with overwhelming proof that the earth is billions of years old, they will come up with a wacky math formula to make a billion years into a biblical "Day."
There's no arguing against these tactics. The point is, there's an explanation for everything, and if the explanation is hard to believe, so much the better! That's what faith is about.
So, if you were a former believer, you'd be received essentially the same as the rest of us -- with scorn, derision, and mock sympathy.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Welcome Jarmir!
When last I checked, atheism was lack of belief in a god. We no more know that god exists than theists do that god does exist. However, given all evidence(or lack thereof) the logical conclusion seems that he doesn't. I personally don't think agnostics exist
as I wrote here:
Premises: Agnosticism is a safer bet than atheism. It is a middle ground between theism and atheism. It refers to someone who isn’t sure about god.
Problem: Gnosticism and agnosticism refer to knowledge, theism and atheism to faith.
To put things very barely, you believe or you don't. You cannot both have and not have faith. Therefore, you are theist or atheist. A lot of people don't like to think like that. They prefer to say 'I'm not sure, maybe there's something out there' But if you are not a believer, you are by default a non believer.
People think atheism implies an active disbelief in gods. However, this is covered by weak and strong atheism. Strong atheism is reserved for such 'militant' non believers.
In truth, both the doubter and definite unbeliever are atheists. Many atheists call themselves agnostic atheists, as they have neither knowledge nor faith of god.
It is even possible to be an agnostic theist, as some theists will say there is no way for us to know anything about god. So as you can see, agnosticism is a state of un-belief. It is not a weaker state than atheism, as each deals with a different meaning. If you are agnostic you might as well call yourself atheist.
Of course there are some that would disagree, and have. While I agree with some of their points, it seems to me that if you do not believe in a god, you are an atheist. I don't know why people say they are agnostic because they 'cannot' know. You cannot know if a invisible pink unicorn exists, but given the lack of evidence, most people would feel safe to go out on a limb and say they don't believe the unicorn exist.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.