instructs the israelites to exact his vengeance on the babylonians, including dashing the babies against stones and taking the virgins as spoils of war. The biblical god is apparently, not beyond using people to carry out his vengeance.

Given this fact, is the old testament god wrong in using the israelites to kill the babylonians, or is your claim vengeance belongs personally to god, demonstrably wrong?

I appreciate your humble candor, it is quite refreshing!

I actually think apostasy is the best translation in 2 Thess 2:3. The Greek word used is 'apostasia.'

A very important element of good Biblical exegesis is letting Scripture interpret other Scripture. First, if you take a look at the definition of apostasy, the meaning would be that of a person who held a religious belief of XYZ and then later starts to deny it. That never implies that they were actually in the faith, or 'saved.' Two other verses prove this I think:

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:18-19

This is fairly clear to me, and if you read the entire context it's actually John warning us about antichrists. This is the same subject Paul is talking about with the church at Thessalonica as well as with Timothy.

We also see proof that people can 'say' they are Christians, but aren't really believers when Paul writes to Titus:

"They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works..." - Titus 1:16

We also have the words of our Lord:

"On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' " - Matthew 7:22-23

This isn't even apostates! These are people who thought they were believers to the end... sadly, bad evangelism creates this idea that if you said a prayer one time in Sunday school and held a preachers hand you will be saved... Jesus says that you will know Christians by their fruits, not by them being tricked into saying a prayer by some clever evangelist...

People present different positions on the Bible, but I think some are more honest than others. The best way is to study it yourself without any motives to 'see' one thing or another. We are all broken radios my friend. God is sending a perfect signal, but some of the broken radios distort the signal if you know what I mean.

My father is an evangelical minister, my mother is a missionary, my big brother is a lay preacher, my younger brother is an elder in a charasmatic church. My brother-in-law is a minister, my parents in law, are both ministers (yes, him and her).

I grew up in church, in the house next to the church. Steeped in the church. I lived the life of the church. I was a youth leader in the church. Don't condescend to me about my knowledge of scripture.  Psalm 137, verse 9, is what you are looking

for. And numbers. Spend some time in numbers. Now, I believe I know what morality is and dress it up as you will, morality is about not doing harm to others. I believe you understand morality perfectly well and I want you to tell me whether or not the actions

of your god sit so comfortably with you that you would agree to be the instrument of god's perfect justice. I want to know if you would disobey your god (which is what I believe you would do) or if you would undertake to kill for him, given he is perfectly just.

What I want to know is if your morals are the same morals as your god's morals. And don't be uncomfortable with me, eXni. I know perfectly well why you won't answer.

I don't think the Moon made of cheese comment is even an exaggeration is it?  How is that more silly than a global flood that has miles of water over every inch of the planet?

Morality is nothing more than a subjective view on an action(s), or in some cases thought(s), that is filtered by emotion, experience, and instinct. The ultimate flaw with every religion that claims objective morality is the very claim of objective morality. I know enough of the specifics of christianity to detail it with perfection. The bible, by claiming that adam and eve were given the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, and that the knowledge (and original sin) were passed on to all humanity, leads to the inescapable conclusion that in order to sin, one must feel bad on at least some level, because they know they are going against the truth they know. When I see someone who's being brutalised, be it by aggressor or circumstance, I feel sick inside. I can't imagine being able to override this feeling, it has been with me through all my memories. So that could give credit to the theory of the commandment on killing. But I don't feel bad at all if I see a poor thief steal food or clothing from someone far richer.

 “Morality is nothing more than a subjective view on an action(s), or in some cases thought(s), that is filtered by emotion, experience, and instinct.”

If you are unwillingly to admit that raping children for fun is wrong for all people in all places at all times then I think you may have frontal lobe damage. I find it hard to believe that anyone actually accepts subjective morality outside of online conjecture. It simply never bears itself out. People always seem to appeal to absolutes when their paychecks are short, atheist or otherwise.

“The ultimate flaw with every religion that claims objective morality is the very claim of objective morality.”

Feel free to unpack this; it seemed like an incomplete thought.

“I know enough of the specifics of christianity to detail it with perfection.”

Ironic, considering your previous denial of perfection…

“The bible, by claiming that adam and eve were given the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, and that the knowledge (and original sin) were passed on to all humanity, leads to the inescapable conclusion that in order to sin, one must feel bad on at least some level, because they know they are going against the truth they know.”

The desires of a person’s heart are evil by nature. When a non-believer does anything with the appearance of ‘good’ God is working in them to bring about blessing to someone. Emotional guilt is irrelevant. You can live a life of sin and never feel bad about it, but you still know it’s wrong. I don’t think all murderers feel badly about what they do, but they all know it’s wrong.

“I can't imagine being able to override this feeling, it has been with me through all my memories.

 … I don't feel bad at all if I see a poor thief steal food or clothing from someone far richer.“

The first part is your conscience testifying to God’s law. The second is your opinion. God sees stealing as stealing. If you steal and apple to eat or you rob a bank, you are still a thief.

“At this point, I must conclude that even if there is truth in your religion, it was stained by the hand of evil at some point..”

Unless of course God directs history and preserves His truth…

“While there is much potential for good within your religion, even if it is true, then it is evil. By it's own claim that I, as a descendant of the ones who gave us the knowledge of good and evil, know what good and evil are.”

I don’t understand your comment.
 

    That's good.  Although I possess an opposing viewpoint it isn't my desire to belittle you. I prefer amicable relations whenever possible.

I think the fact that clinical psychopaths exist is good evidence against objective morality, for similar reasons...because when you take those physiological reinforcements away you get 'bad' behavior.  If morality were really 'written in our hearts' I don't think that would be the case.  A similar argument works for the existence of a soul, as long as the theist defines soul as consciousness.  (They can always give it a meaning so soft that it cannot be falsified)

Why is harm 'bad?'

So we aren't talking about only physical harm then?

It feels good to serial rapists when they are in the moment, does that make rape 'good?'

Apostasy is the most courageous thing one can do, breaking free of the mental shackles of religious thought to the higher truths about the nature of reality, transcending the blinkered vision where all that can be accepted as truth is contained within the words which can be inscribed within the all-too-finite pages of a 'holy book'.

Unless you are dealing with an 'extremely-fundamental-king-james-only' kind of Christian, you are simply misrepresenting us, and know that you know please refrain. I don't even know that the KJV onlyists view the Bible in the way you mentioned. It has nothing to do with finite words on finite pages; it's the metaphysical message that the words convey that is of so much value.

I really wish you could rise above flat assertion every time you talk about God or the Bible.

Humans have empathy, and the application of this to the individual and society is called morality.  The fact that it so often fails, even in the Bible, is low hanging fruit when showing that objective morality does not exist.

I guess you've ignored the fact that it doesn't fail.

Empathy does not explain morality... A serial rapist can identify with what his victim is going through, and it doesn't phase him... nor does he think what he is doing is wrong. Read this quote, just to get an idea of Godless systems of morality:

‘If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…’

Jeffrey Dahmer, in an interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994.

The only difference is that the actual word of God doesn't command the death of infidels and apostates 16 times... but who's countin'? We're all still crazy right.

Did you ignore what I wrote?  This is my point exactly, the guy did not have any empathy for fellow humans.  He could kill someone and it brought him pleasure (Although I imagine plenty of non psychotics can get pleasure from killing, that by itself is not 'evil', it depends on circumstance.)

Empathy is not about knowing what another human goes through intellectually, it is about knowing and even feeling what they are going through emotionally.  Your post misses the point entirely.  Being psychotic has nothing to do with religion or atheism, it is about lacking the capacity for meaningful empathy.

The 'Word of God' is the opposite of true morality.

It is simply the demand of unquestioning obedience to a set of handed-down rules or laws.

Whereas morality is about basing ones decisions on empathy and the assumption that others generally experience things as we do, so that what we find hurtful and offensive will tend to be shared by others, and that it is to our own advantage and comfort to maintain positive relationships with others in our group, who may be in a position to return favours and even just the joys of companionship.

We have even identified the parts of the brain that facilitate this process of modelling and 'mirroring' others' response to ourselves and our actions.

Tell me, exNihilo, are you really such a dogmatic and illogical douche, or some sort of troll having 'fun' with us??

Your persistent refusal to present a serious, logical justification for your naked assertions about God, Logic, etc is long past 'tiresome'....

eXni. As a believer and given humans can do no good until they are bathed is jesus' perfect blood, are you now intrinsically a better, kinder and nicer person than we atheists are?

  So infidels and apostates have nothing to fear from God ?

"When a non-believer does anything with the appearance of ‘good’ God is working in them to bring about blessing to someone."

Ridiculous.

"Emotional guilt is irrelevant."

I'm not speaking of guilt, I'm speaking of my knowledge of good and evil.

"You can live a life of sin and never feel bad about it, but you still know it’s wrong. I don’t think all murderers feel badly about what they do, but they all know it’s wrong."

Then where is the knowledge of good and evil? You cannot refer to the bible for this question. For thousands of years, in your delusional version of reality, man had this knowledge without the bible. So where is it if not emotion?

I've corrected you already, but I challenge you to find justification for burring witches at the stake within the Scriptures since it appears to be a hot button with you... Jesus said to love your enemies, end of story... You are aligning me with the Roman Catholic heresy which falsely established primacy and theocracy... it's not fair to do so. I might as well put you and Stalin in the same category for your moral dependency.

As for a mis-fire, I think the list of mis-fires I provided is more than enough to outweigh a hundred fold any 'threat' that Christianity has ever posted...

I’m not sure what a troll is… And I simply believe what the Bible teaches.

Abortion is murder and Christians have been the leading proponents of liberation from slavery, women’s rights, etc.
 

@Atheistextremist

eXni. As a believer and given humans can do no good until they are bathed is jesus' perfect blood, are you now intrinsically a better, kinder and nicer person than we atheists are?

-- Eternally speaking, at this current moment, in the eyes of the God who bought me, absolutely. That is not to say that I was born any different than you or that I brought anything more to the table then you do right now, in fact I probably had less to offer God than most of you. But the fact that He has drawn me to Himself and granted me the gift of faith makes me more important to Him than you are… which is how value is determined in my eyes.

@Prozac

“So infidels and apostates have nothing to fear from God ?”

You certainly do… just not from Christians.

@Vastet

I ran out of time… I’ll get to you soon I hope.
 

  Hello eX. Thank you for your reply.  If I may switch gears with you for a moment, over on the thread titled "Questions about God..theists answer these!" we have encountered the statistical equivalent of winning the lottery, ... a new forum member who professes the Jewish faith.  A rare jewel on this atheist forum.

   His user name is FurryCatHerder.  If you feel like it, go over and probe him theologically and say hello.  He's highly intelligent and very opinionated.  No sarcasm intended but since according to you our atheist logic is a major fail   it might be interesting to see how your theistic logic squares with his equally formidable, theistic logic.

  It might be fun. 

  Ciao!

"How is it fair for us to prosecute members of our own species just for acting upon their natural desires? They were born that way; they are just a bag of chemicals fizzing differently than us… What injustice. I appreciate the appeal to objective morality, yet sad at your stubborn refusal of giving due credit."

It's self defense. It isn't required to be fair. Though I'd be among the first to condemn current practices, and look for ways to help people instead of locking them in a cell for years on end.

"I’m not at liberty to apply this entire indictment to your character, nor do I believe you to be in violation of them all at the present moment, but the last part is fitting."

You're misrepresenting my claim of godhood. I don't claim to be able to do more than any animal of our species can do. I just claim control of my own destiny, and responsibility for it. I claim that everyone has this capacity, if only they reach out and take it.

"You’re definitely Canadian J- ~ you are deceived my friend."

"You’re presupposing my worldview to argue against me… again."

You won't accept arguments from any other source, so I have little choice in the matter.

"God’s law, which gives the standard of moral perfection, has been written on our hearts since Jesus, so in a way yes. The problem is that man is so darkened in his thinking that we make a good show to avoid this reality. Some better than others, but it remains true for all people."

I find that incredibly nebulous. We do, but we desire to hide it from ourselves. Why would we desire to deceive ourselves? Especially on such a critical issue? And please don't try to claim that we enjoy it, I don't enjoy doing things that are wrong. I might get a thrill based on release of fear for getting away with something, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed doing the wrong in the first place. Quite the opposite. Most people experience stress and emotional discord when doing something they know is wrong. They don't enjoy it, unless they're a sociopath.

 @Vastet

“It's self defense. It isn't required to be fair. Though I'd be among the first to condemn current practices, and look for ways to help people instead of locking them in a cell for years on end.”

The problem is that there is no way to draw the lines without the Bible. If you prosecute the murderer then it is no longer self and you have moved into preeminent justice on the idea that it is likely this man could do to you what they have done to others… and if you go there we should systematically eradicate people on the basis that they are statistically more likely to commit the ever evasive definition of ‘unnecessary harm.’ Maybe we should start with people who appear to be gang members and then move on to people who have Mohawks… we can flip a coin to stop he rampage eventually whenever we feel like the threats have been neutralized.

“I don't believe you have freedom in christ. I believe you think you do, but I don't believe you do. I believe you have been conditioned by others or yourself, or a combination of the two, to accept logic except when applied to your god, and the religion built up around it.

I'll also point out that you came here. I didn't go to you. I'm very aggressive against religion, but only when it presents itself. I don't go looking for it.”

My point was that you attacked me at every point you claimed wanting to forego as a moral person… And I dare say you went looking for a fight just by signing up here, it doesn’t take much to realize what this forum is used for.

Atheists fight Christians out of spite for their creator, nothing else. Christianity only poses good for communities, not bad. If you actually read the Bible you would know this… it has always been morally revolutionary wherever it goes, just look at Papua New Guinea and the cessation of cannibalism… Until people hear that God has expectations they tend to eat each other… fits well with my worldview.

“No matter how I try, I cannot make sense of this. How does mere knowledge of evil equal evil? How can a goodly god allow for innocent descendants to be so tainted? If I were your god, and felt it necessary to give my creation a chance to curse themselves, I would give them ALL that chance. I wouldn't make it necessary to pass on such a curse through blood. I would consider it evil to condemn the unborn to evil without even having the choice to be good.”

Maybe its Bible study time J Adam and Eve were unique in some ways. They were morally neutral, they could choose to obey or disobey God and their volition was not in bondage to sin… yet. God commanded them to not eat of the fruit of a specific tree, that was a direct command. The expectations of God as well as the punishment for disobedience was laid out clearly, but when Satan deceived Eve by doing what you are asking me to do quite regularly, that is ‘Surely God didn’t say this or that…’ Satan, like many atheists undermined the word of God and as a result, man fell.

God has certain attributes that couldn’t have been revealed to us unless the fall happened. Mercy, grace, patience, and justice to name a few. We could not experience God’s character as much as we can with sin in the world. If we had an eternal perspective we might see this more fully.

“We do, but we desire to hide it from ourselves. Why would we desire to deceive ourselves? Especially on such a critical issue? And please don't try to claim that we enjoy it, I don't enjoy doing things that are wrong. I might get a thrill based on release of fear for getting away with something, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed doing the wrong in the first place. Quite the opposite. Most people experience stress and emotional discord when doing something they know is wrong. They don't enjoy it, unless they're a sociopath.”

The fact that we are born in sin and a slave to it dictates much of our desires. We enjoy this deception because it allows us the mirage of freedom that we want but don’t really have. Your making progress if you acknowledge this as wrong, as it really is of no physical harm to anyone… I think you have a decent moral compass by the grace of God. My brother in law is a great guy, upstanding, loves his family, etc… the problem is that the scales of eternity are not swayed but any good that we do… only if we put on the righteousness of Christ will any of it matter. When God looks to a non-believer He sees a sinful soul, plagued by evil even for those who appear to be ‘good’ on the outset because without faith its impossible to please God… but when He looks at someone who has accepted the work of Christ and made Him Lord of their life God sees that righteousness of Jesus that we could have never obtained in place of our own… this is what is meant of being covered by the blood of Jesus. On the day of judgment, we might very well stand shoulder to shoulder you and I, but when the wrath of God is poured out, there will be a shield of faith and the righteousness of Christ that covers those of us who although we deserved the same, we have truly been set free.

@Atheistextremeist

“What I meant was just in terms of good old day to day decency and niceness. Are you, right now, in terms of your behaviour, nicer and kinder and gentler and possessed of greater integrity than we are or are you just some guy who says sorry to god a lot?”

I do say sorry for God a lot, but it’s because I recognize that I can spend my whole day feeding the poor and still sin the whole time because I could be taking the credit… Sin is deep, there is not a day that goes by that Christians do not sin against God… The Bible says that if you claim to be without sin you are a liar… Just something to keep in mind as you encounter these perfectionist Christians.

“Also, why does god insist that it's faith and not works that get you in the door? Why are works somehow devalued in the eyes of god?”

I think it’s because faith places a greater dependency on God whereas most people (such as Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, et al.) work as though they can earn something from God. Make no mistake about it, we Christians are expected to work, but the works that we do are a result of being saved, not an effort to become saved.

When people try to earn a good standing before God they pretty much say to Him that the greatest gift of all time, the gift of salvation is something they would rather pay for… imagine saving up for three years just to buy your wife a necklace and when she gets it the first thing she asks is how much did it cost and when can I start paying you back? After telling her she doesn’t have to, she continues to slip money in your wallet… it’s disrespectful and it is an attempt to steal value from the gift when all is said and done.

“We'd generally agree in the context of a relationship that love is what you do, not what you say. Why does god appear not to value natural goodness but instead insists on rampant grovelling and beseeching?”

God does value natural goodness; the problem is that none of us is naturally good in His sight. Unless we do our good deeds with the motivation to please God we have taken His glory for ourselves, God tells us that without faith it is impossible to please Him…

"The problem is that there is no way to draw the lines without the Bible."

Sure there is, a system of law which the society agrees with. We might not quite be there yet, but thanks to the French revolution we're closer than we ever were before.

"If you prosecute the murderer then it is no longer selfand you have moved into preeminent justice on the idea that it is likely this man could do to you what they have done to others…"

I see the potential for a side topic here. Frankly, I'm not in favour of punishment for crimes. Studies in psychology suggest, if not flat out prove, that the effects of negative reinforcement are negligible at best. It is far more effective to reward good behaviour than it is to punish bad behaviour. Much of the current system of justice is based upon vengeance, which simply circles back upon itself. It gets even worse when taking into consideration those who have a mental handicap of any kind, and simply can't understand the consequences of their actions.

In Africa, people get help from christians only if they partake in a christian education. The same happens everywhere. There is no charity for the sake of charity. It is indoctrination of the highest order. Only scientology is more insidious.
Also in Africa, christians spread the false belief that condoms cannot prevent AIDS, exacerbating the epidemic. They attempt to instil a methodology of abstinence, which simply does not work, and never has. We're biologically compelled to have sex. Fighting that biology is unhealthy, and can result in the kind of sexual deviance recently seen throughout the christian priesthood.
Christians blow up doctors offices and drown their own children (not all of them of course, not even most of them, but enough of them).
And then I look at the unintended horrors of missionary work in North America, and the conclusion is obvious: Even when christians honestly attempt to help people, they only spread suffering.