Atheism and the welfare state
Offline Hi folks,
Been away for a while but I'm baaack!!! In my absence, I have pondered why the US is so damned religious and atheism thrives in Europe--the nordic countries in particular. My answer is based on of course unscientific observations and readings from biased and sadly often inaccurate sources (eg. Wikipedia). But my conclusion seems to make sense at least to me. The social welfare system in Nordic nations provides a powerful secular antidote to suffering. In the US, inidividualism, the free market and consumerism no doubt leaves Americans seeking solace and pleasure through faith. In countries like Sweden with so many social services (eg. daycare, sex education, maternity leave, inexpensive higher education, retirement, etc...), there is really no need for a church to play a big role in peoples' lives ie. the state replaces the church. In the US, religion is like the soma in Huxley's Brave New World. And Christmas is a time when everyone gets high on Christ. Also, because the state takes care of each citizen, social cohesion is accomplished via secular means. This is not to say that atheism is bound to any specific ideology. But atheism flourishes better in societies where religion is needed less. I would also add that even in my great grandchildrens' lifetimes, the United States will never evolve into a welfare state. Religion is here to stay. What say you my Scandinavian atheists?
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Let's use Zuckerman's 2005 study on the percentage of atheists in various nations:
population (2004)% Atheist/
Agnostic/
Nonbeliever in GodNumber of Atheists/
Agnostics
Nonbelievers in God
(minimum - maximum)
A lot of the most atheistic nations in the world are nordic. Other (that I have highlighted) are poor and ex-communist. The suffering in them hasn't made people flock to religion like Brave New World's characters flocked to drug use and casual sex. Atheism seems to flourish in these poverty ridden nations.
"And Christmas is a time when everyone gets high on Christ."
They don't get high on Christ. They get high on consumerism. My Christian family members don't even mention Christ at Christmas. There is an obligatory prayer before dinner, but that's it.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
what the fuck, man!? neither the czech republic nor hungary are "poor" by any reasonable standards. have you been there?
even in the days of the warsaw pact the populations of these countries were a helluva lot better off than the population of the soviet union, especially in czechoslovakia. as far as communist countries go, i would venture that only tito's yugoslavia and perhaps poland had it better, but not by much. there were never any widespread famines in hungary or czechoslovakia during communism, as there were in the soviet union, and only two short events of bloodshed, one in hungary in 1956 and one in czechoslovakia in 1968, both perpetrated by the soviet union to restore communist norms. 1989 was bloodless for both. both countries are in nato, the eu, and schengen. the czech republic probably already meets the maastricht criteria for conversion to the euro but doesn't want it yet. i will concede hungary might be headed for a spot of trouble because of its huge national debt, but it won't be an argentina-style meltdown or anything. here in slovakia we already have the euro with no real inflation, thanks mostly to the dollar sinking like a stone. slovenia's had it for awhile, but they had a rougher start.
"ex-communist" does not mean "poor." that's such an american generalization. the former warsaw pact countries are doing quite well, particularly the visegrad four (czech rep., slovakia, hungary, poland).
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
There have been other studies indicating a link between poverty and religion.
The list of countries provided is far from complete, however it is still interesting. It doesn't actually include a lot of poor countries. How about the middle-east and middle and southern America? I would be interested in looking at the exceptions and trying to work out why. I'm surprised Vietnam is so atheist and that Canada is so religious.
Another point about the US is the high level of fundamentalist religion. They experienced a resurgence in the 60s and really seem to have taken hold. Once you get big communities of that kind they discourage education and free thought which makes them a bit self-perpetuating.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
There might even be more in Canada than that study indicates. But 90% of the religious people here don't much talk about it outside the home. It's considered a private thing for the most part. But the churches are still everywhere. Something in the US apparently makes them want proselytize. The vast majority of Canadians I've ever encountered might talk about it if pushed, but they aren't going to try to convert you. Church signs are devoted to activities and events, not conversion and politics.
JW's are an obvious exception to the rule, with the odd fox viewer. You really need to shut that crap down. All it'll take is someone to challenge them on false advertising. They've had enough actual news to fill one time slot in 10 years.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
From: http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP07398441_c.pdf
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I can see this. For example, the religiousity of New Orleans increased expotnetially after Hurricane Katrina.
I just remembered a study you might find interesting ragdish
http://www.nrc.nl/international/Features/article2394314.ece/Insecurity_not_education_determines_church_attendance
"I just remembered a study you might find interesting ragdish
http://www.nrc.nl/international/Features/article2394314.ece/Insecurity_not_education_determines_church_attendance"
Me: Apparently, we need a welfare state in the U.S....and the sooner, the better.
Conor
85% in Sweden? Damn, count me in. Good music, sensible people; jolly good.
"I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them." ~Galileo Galilei
Thats because all the smart people already left the area...
What Would Kharn Do?
ROFL!
Proving once again that correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation!
Actually, I used to live on the Gulf Coast, and am a veteran of 20 or so hurricanes. It seems like every three or four hurricanes, some dumb shit teenager would die from trying to surf during the storm, or the damn government would have to come in and rescue a bunch of rednecks who stayed in evacuated areas for hurricane parties.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I'll never forget the sight of people playing and gawking at the seaside when the predicted tsunami struck a number of years ago. It affected me more than any other disastrous event in my life, including Challenger and 9/11. So many idiots...
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.