Hi from a theist!
Posted on: December 12, 2009 - 1:32pm
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Hi from a theist!
I'm from another forum that is associated with a site called Tentmaker. Anyone heard of it? Anyway, I come from a fundamentalist christian background from childhood. (That might mean there is no hope for me from your perspective, lol) About two years ago my religious beliefs changed , I started having a problem with the idea of eternal torment doctrine. That was the biggest problem. Long story short, now I'm a christian universalist. I live in Illinois . I guess I'm here to hear responses to christian universalism. I think that a Creator exists because of complexities, however I think religions are wrong. And if a Creator exists, universalism makes the most sense to me.
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A agree and again, so what?
If Richard Dawkins came out tommorow and said, "There is a God" he would be in the same boat as an Christian or Muslim with a PHD in physics or biology. All this proves is that smart people can believe false things.
SCIENCE DOES disprove a God/creator.
It most certainly does. And simple logic even before you apply science shows the absurdity of such a claim.
Ask yourself this. Does a God think?
What does it think with?
If it doesn't have a physical brain, then what would it think with?
Science has proven that BRAINS do thinking and BRAINS have a physical location and physical matter. Smart people in science try to justify God belief, that is true, but METHOD itself is not leading to their conclusions, it is leading away from this absurd concept. Being smart only means you are cleaver in passing off a title as demonstrable method, which is independent of title.
I don't care if a person making a claim is an atheist, or Muslim or Christian. I don't care if they are a laymen or a PHD. They still have to have independent peer reviewed, repeatable and falsifiable method outside their own pet whims or bias.
If being smart made you right about all the claims you make then Newton would have been right about alchemy.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Some scientists do believe in a Creator, even though Science does not in any way support such an idea.
Most scientists, especially the more qualified and highly placed, such as at the US National Academy of Science, do not believe. Only about 8% at the NAS have a personal belief in God.
There will always be individuals who are so committed to a religious belief they find ways to maintain a belief, despite apparent difficulties with many aspects of Science.
Science cannot disprove a Creator, in the most general sense, but a 'Creator' doesn't really explain anything, since you then have to explain what created the Creator.
And there is no logical argument that whatever originated the Universe was more than a random quantum scale event, let alone anything intelligent or benevolent or even necessarily infinite.
IOW there are no good logical arguments that even if some identifiable creator was required, that it must have any of the standard attributes of the Christian or any other God.
There simply is no evidence for, let alone any necessity for, an intelligent Creator.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Yes but an intelligent theist could explain why he/she thinks there is a Creator , and won't they sound just as reasonable as the atheist. As long as they don't go further into religious stuff. You know? They would use those complexity arguements , and they talk about how the origin of things could reasonably be thought to be a creator. And they present it very well. And make at least deism, at least as reasonable as atheism?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Not unless they can explain how a Creator came to exist, and how it makes sense to 'explain' complexity by something even more complex.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I think what your concerned about is, that even deism will inevitably lead to religious problems for the World. Is that it?
'Deisim'or other more abstract beliefs are not necessarily problems for the world, unless they become widely accepted substitutes for actually seeking real knowledge and understanding of man and the universe.
We do need at least some people trying to address the mounting problems facing the world today, and that has to be based on reality, not wishful thinking and fantasy, no matter how comforting.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
But they can make reasonable assertions, like certain things would not happen on there own in any amount of time. You have heard those I'm sure. Which begs to have the gap filled with the idea of a higher power. May be God is not more cmplex, or even separate from the universe. God could be one with the universe. It could all be God's energy or power.
I agree, and belief in a Creator will not hinder that. Or it shouldn't. And if it does, their God belief is not the problem, its their allowing it to cause them to neglect doing what you said. It could motivate a person to work hard to address the World's problems. It depends on the person really.
I have to go get some sleep, I stayed up all night last night practically , and am very tired.
Or maybe you're an atheist because believing in an invisible friend doesn't bring you and pleasure and comfort as it does fullarmor2. If it did, you could simple convince yourself that your belief was logical. fullarmor2 believes he is just as logical as any of us.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
One of the most complex structures we know is the human brain, and everything we know about intelligence points to it being based on such complex systems. Powerful computers, which are the nearest things we make that can emulate some aspects of human thought and reasoning, are also very complex things, with billions of elements in them.
So it would rather hard to see how a super intelligence could be simple in any sense.
The Universe cannot be conscious, it is far too big, and expanding, so that even for those parts that are not moving away from each other faster than the speed of light, and so can never communicate with each other, the time it would take for messages to go from one part of the Universe to another can be up to billions of years. Hardly compatible with a thinking process that could remotely keep up with our own brains.
Sorry, doesn't work, unless you imagine something utterly different to anything we actually observe, and there is simply no justification for that. It doesn't even provide any ultimate explanation, just raises even more unkowns and unknowables.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
"Sound" is different than "evidence"
Lots of bad arguments throughout history can "sound reasonable". The only way to confirm them is to test them, replicate them, falsify them and get them independently reviewed and replicated.
AND AGAIN, Newton was a smart person, but that didn't make everything he said or believed credible.
Certainly a scientist can separate science from their personal beliefs, not only can they, THAT is a requirement of good method. HOWEVER, a scientist who does believe in a god, has no choice but to dodge their position once they do try to mix the two.
Argument from complexity has been beaten like a dead horse. If complexity implies design and a scientist tries to use a REAL butterfly as an example of a creator, then they have to accept ecoli, and cancer which are also complex as being "created". The people who do this are not mostly scientists but apologists who may have scientific background, but are not employing good method, to say the least, not even good logic.
Any credibly scientist who wishes to be taken seriously cannot mix the two, even if they do believe. For them to do such would require them to come up with an "invisible brain" model and replicate it and falsify it and get it independently reviewed. I don't see this happening anytime soon in any credibly scientific community.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
This is a vacuous platitude and no different than saying, "to each his own".
Since we are not talking about human rights, this is irrelevant. Humans should have the right to believe whatever they want. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE here. The issue is being able to demonstrate to others the credibility of any given claim on any given issue, not just religion or gods.
I don't make up mitosis or gravity. Those things are confirmed beyond my personal "to each his own". "To each his own" is not the subject. No one gets to make up their own truths.
What humans can do, which they don't do enough, is test their claims and get others outside their own position to test and verify that position. "To each his own" merely expresses the empathetic human desire to get along with others. That is a nice idea, but still has nothing to do with demonstrating the credibility of what any human may utter to another human.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Because it is not. You still have to swallow a non-material brain without any evidence for such. It is nice you're not slamming planes into buildings or shooting abortion doctors. That still has nothing to do with the starting point.
The believer, no matter liberal or fundy or zealot, is still starting from a position that a non-material brain exists.
I thought Jefferson was a brilliant thinker. He too rejected the myth of the bible, but fell for the idea that an invisible brain started all this. He too would be in the same boat you are. Just because I like his contributions to law doesn't mean even he had demonstrable evidence for his generic deism. Deism is merely a watered down version of fantastic claims.
AND the newer attempts to avoid providing evidence are "new age" pantheism. The idea that the universe itself is a giant thinking being, or entity or force. Still just a different skunk dressed up in the same naked assertion with no ability to independently replicate or falsify such a claim.
It really all amounts to what the believer wants to be real and nothing to do with the the pragmatic ability to demonstrate this to others outside their position.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Thanks for all the responses here folks. You have given me a lot to consider. It has been very interesting having my beliefs challenged . This is good forum. Everyone seems to be respectful and everything, so far. lol
Heroin can bring me pleasure, but that doesn't mean it is good for me. I don't doubt that my theist counterparts believe that they are right as much as I believe that I am right. I think you missed my prior posts. Testing with independent verification is the only way to settle disputes. Do not conflate human empathy with equality that all claims are equal by default. Otherwise Thor and Isis and Yahweh and farting a Lamborghini out of my ass would all be equal, because we wouldn't want to hurt someone's feelings.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog