Where Would You Go?
Offline Earlier this week, I was having an argument on a friend's Facebook page with one of his other friends. My friend and I were bemoaning recent politics in the United States, and his other friend (who is conservative but certainly not right-wing batshit crazy) was essentially inviting us to leave the country if we didn't like it.
He quoted the columnist George Will (and I have been unable to find the original quote, though to be honest I only looked for a few minutes), who allegedly said something like this: The true litmus test of the quality of life in the United States would be to remove all border restrictions for a week, and see how many people came in and how many people left.
On the face of it, the results would be obvious. Many more people would come to the U.S. than leave it. There are many, many places that are worse to live in than the U.S. But it's an incomplete thought experiment, as I pointed out to my friend's friend.
If the U.S. were to lift it's border restrictions for a week, but no other country did the same, of course few people would leave. No more than usual. But think about it - there would likely be hundreds of thousands of people flooding into the U.S., which would heavily tax the country's services and infrastructure. And I'll bet a couple of years down the road, quite a few people would be interested in leaving the country.
But if ALL nations lifted their border restrictions, many of the people who would have headed to the U.S. would probably head to countries that are closer.
In any event, you can see the problems with the George Will quote (assuming it exists). It reminded me quite a bit of typical theist thinking.
But it got me wondering - if all countries in the world lifted their immigration restrictions for a short period of time, where would you go? Or would you stay in the country you're already in?
For me the choice would be easy. I'd move to Norway, as my parents came from there, I speak the language, and I even have a place to live there. I'm thinking about moving there anyway if the mid-term elections here in the U.S. go in a strongly conservative direction.
Where would you go?
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
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Thing is, I would travel more (no visa requirements and all) but I wouldn't leave Canada, I love it here to much, I have lived in the states and all, and I wouldn't trade Canada for anywhere else. I would love to see sweden and switzerland, italy, spain, China and japan, australia and austria but in the end I would settle here in Canada.
Most of the restrictions for people moving are not border related but rather financial or mental conditioning.
I don't see anything wrong with looking to improve your living conditions. I intend to travel and live in different places first to determine where I like it most.
Moving without living there first is stupid. I do however want basic needs taken care of where I move, so I don't have to watch people die slowly due to inability to obtain rudimentary healthcare.
Infrastructure is important to me. I want public goods well funded and publicly owned, not private corporations that look to skim profits off the taxpayer's dime and diminish public necessities.
Three of my friends have lived in Japan and they all loved it there. One of them told me today (he has been back for 2 months) that he thinks he is going to move there for good.
I'm looking at a good number of places as considerations. Most of them are not here in the states, but a few are. I also may end up deciding to live in several different places and simply alternate.
If I could go somewhere to live right now to try though? Luxembourg. I want to see what it is like there.
I can't fathom someone that wouldn't consider travel or moving simply because they wouldn't be in the spot of arbitrary borders they were born in.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Top 3...
Canada (always wanted to be... uh... a maple sucking, tree chopping, puck fucker)
Japan (always wanted to be a giant robot!)
Somolia! (always wanted to be a pirate warlord!)
What Would Kharn Do?
People always make these statements about where they should live/where they will live. But espcially for guys it all boils down to money and sex(what a surprise) about where they live and vacation. With women family considerations are often more important.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Thanks for proving my point! But the giant robot is kind of unique for you(or do you want a mechanical girlfriend?)
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I've lived in various countries and I can honestly say that I love the land itself but of coarse there is no "perfect" form of government.My choice would be France, it's a beautiful land and has many fine qualities that I find rather alluring.
All forms of tampering with human beings, getting at them, shaping them against their will to your own pattern, all thought control and conditioning is, therefore, a denial of that in men which makes them men and their values ultimate.
Isaiah Berlin
How is "I wanna be 100+ft tall walking death machine that fights godzilla on a daily basis" unique, for me?
edit;
That would be good too
What Would Kharn Do?
I'd stay in Canada.
I was in Munich studying for a time. It's a really nice city with few polluting cars and good public transit. I don't know much about German politics but they seem a lot more socially conscious than Canadians, at least in environmental concerns. It was fun, but not enough to leave behind everything.
I've always liked the idea of living in a Scandinavian country. But my opinion is really only based on hearsay.
To OP: you might want to point out to your friend that the reason why so many people would come to the US is because of problems they, often deliberately, made.
Funny you mention that. I'm kind of a nomad myself. I don't like to stay in one place very long. I've dreamed of moving to Canada, France, England, Ireland, even South Africa... but I've never really been outside of the U.S. :'( Anyway, my boyfriend is the one who wants to stay close to mommy. I've talked to him about moving somewhere far away and he's not in favor of the idea because he wants to be close to family, all of whom, by the way, tend to bad-mouth his brother who up and moved to Oregon (the bastard!) and now they never see him anymore! Boo hoo....
Wow. That was a little more emotional than I intended. I guess that's been secretly eating at me for the last two years (since we started dating).
But actually I've been really itching to defect to Canada anyway because of the whole... you know, U.S. economy about to morph into a massive black hole of over-printed dollar bills.
I live in Portland, Oregon. I have lived in the western US and Hawaii mostly. One year in Kansas I will never repeat. For me, the Pacific Northwest is just about perfect climate wise and Portland is a very liberal and laid back place so I feel comfortable here.
But US politics suck. In the past and, I'm certain, in the future. So where would I go?
England. Scotland. New Zealand. Canada.
With no visas, I would like to visit a lot more places. But would probably settle some where English speaking with decent infrastructure.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I can already travel freely within the Eurozone... and that's pretty much covering all the places I care to travel nowadays. If the lift of borders include freedom from military tyranny, criminal bandits, political extremists and religious nutters, I would like to travel east; to see the old historical places. But I am not about to risk my life just to inspect some ruined temples and castles. As for the US of A, it doesn't really hold any interest. I've seen enough of it. They have nothing of any real value there. The really hot regions (tropics/equatorial) doesn't agree with my complexion, so I'm not all that interested in Africa and southeast Asia either. But I could happily travel around the French and Spanish countryside for a long long time, probably longer than I will live, so there.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
I predict he'll move with you as long as the sex is good and he can have money wherever you move(Men are so predictable).
But at least we have a government that cares enough to pass these bills out to who votes them in power.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I'd stay here. Canada has everything I want or need. I would enjoy travelling a bit, sure. But then Canada has almost everything you can see elsewhere anyway.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Probably a touch of that right below here...
Except, of course; you don't have the kind of bonding that 12,000 years of history will give you.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
I thought it was my backyard for a moment o_O
Nor does it have the kind of societal and racial tensions/hatred that 12,000 years of history will give you
(granted, Norway also lucked out in this regard as well)
What Would Kharn Do?
So all the lazy, do nothings will be in America? They are going to turn America into another version of their own crappy county?
OK, then I am going to go to Mexico. I am going to hang an American flag on my house and put one on my car. Then I am going to demand that all government services be bilingual (or better yet, only in English). I am going to insist that my American heritage be respected.
Since all of the useless people will no longer live in Mexico, I would bet that I will not have too much trouble getting the useful people of Mexico to go along with me on this. While the former USA will become the next third world country, Mexico will become the place that people want to be.
Drawing on experience, my new Mexico will have a death penalty for anyone caught impermissibly inside the borders. Hell but you went to the USA and turned it into the shit that you came from. Live with it or die trying to get to the place that is now your desire.
=
Have we started a colony on Mars yet?
aw sounds like anger issues against anyone that migrates to the U.S.A. I do not refer the United States as America for the simple reason that North and South America is not just made up of one country, this might just be a pet peeve of mine.
All forms of tampering with human beings, getting at them, shaping them against their will to your own pattern, all thought control and conditioning is, therefore, a denial of that in men which makes them men and their values ultimate.
Isaiah Berlin
Barcelona was one of my favourite cities to visit. The weather was awesome, locals relaxed, interesting places around the city, and potentially a nice expat community. I could probably live there at least a couple years, if not more. Prague was great, too, and I could also live there again. I could probably learn to get by in Germany. Munich had the best food but Berlin would be doable as well. Other places I've considered, but never visited: Australia, Japan, Brazil (something about it), any Scandinavian country, India (would at least be fascinating, don't know if I could live there). If I ever have to live in the States (serious doubts about it, but you never know in life), it would have to be someplace extremely liberal, and I'd have to have a kick ass job with a solid health plan. Hawaii might be nice. Just for the language ability, I would be open to England, Ireland, or Scotland in a decent sized city. Probably wouldn't enjoy: Italy, France, Hungary (language, are you kidding?), Bulgaria, Austria (sorry, mostly met rich pricks there), Russia (too dangerous), Poland (language, religion). Switzerland, I'm ambivalent on, but it's freaking expensive, so probably no. Believe it or not, I could probably get by in Serbia, since I have a few friends there, and lots of people in Belgrade speak excellent English (more so and with better fluency than in Prague, which was quite shocking, but apparently it's one of the common options in schools).
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