wait, what about soldiers? what did we do to piss you off?

 cute. as if we have a choice what scopes we have put on our weapons.

Hmm... all leaders are evil then?
Hmm... all soldiers are idiots?

Sounds like a heaping helping of generalization to me.

Nationalism isn't the only reason to have a millitary.

I don't hate soldiers. A soldier is a drudge, like a machine or a dog. Theirs is not to reason why as they say. I don't think human beings should be treated that way. In my opinion it's an affront to human dignity.

At the same time my sympathies are not endless. When your life is destroyed, which unfortunately is a distinct possibility, you must realize that it will not have been a cruel twist of fate nor a tragedy from the stars. You met it more than half way by placing yourself in the service of those who would destroy your life, and to your greater shame use you to destroy the lives of others.

As I see it the real tragedy is that the individual who is intelligent, creative, capable of many great things, and not a disposable commodity or a thing to be used as "cannon fodder" can be exploited in such a manner. Those who profit should be held to account for that and not to direct bitter hostility and bile towards people who have in a sense been wronged by that system.  

No I won't. I'm a civilian now. And I don't hate my country.

Which leads me to an interesting problem: What exactly is a "country"?

Is it

A) The land itself, or

B) The people who inhabit this land, or

C) The political entity and ideology of the state?

Whenever people speak of "their country" this is never made quite clear.

For me, as a Norwegian, the answer is easy. It is about 75% A, 24% B and only 1% C. I guess you can say it is personal. Which in oher words means that I consider the political system and whatever passing governmental body to be almost completely irrelevant when I speak of "my country". But I have many hundreds of generations of ancestors buried here. Without any fucking flag. I piss on the flag. It means fuck all. Nor does any of the bullshit that is spouted by politicians. But family and ancestry means everything.

"Norway" in its present form has only existed for a 100 years (105, to be exact).

But my family has existed for thousands of years. There were quite a lot of "warriors" - as in vikings and berserkers - but we have no tradition for going all Sieg Heil over silly symbols, much less in praise of whatever dubious agenda that "the power elite" is harbouring. Hence, being a soldier mostly means that you will receive basic weapons and tactics training for the purpose of national defence so that you're prepared for the nowadays unlikely event of a foreign military invasion. There is strong political dissent over Nowegian soldiers taking part in operations abroad, even the UN controlled ones. Personally, I don't see how anyone can justify, say, the act of going to Afganistan to kill Afghan people. What are the Afghans supposed to think about that? Most likely they will think exactly the same as Norwegians were thinking when the Germans came here and took over things in the years 1940-45.

What causes mass hysteria, fear, and panic? It is the perception of danger and fear that is the cause. A perception is a sensory or sense impression, or image we create in our own minds. The danger may not be real at all, but illusory. But the perception of danger is what leads to fear, insecurity, and a sense of danger that sets in motion psychological mechanisms.

Fear and panic lead to consensual paranoia, a primordial tribal psychological need to find an enemy or a scapegoat that a tribe seeks to destroy. Invariably, the tribe, society, nation, or government seeks to create a bipolar opposition, that is, a division between US and Them, the Tribe against the Enemy/Other, the Good Us against the Evil Them. This is a primal/fundamental psychological need that is an evolutionary vestige from when man was animalistic in evolutionary development. So while a regressive and infantile orientation, it is nevertheless a basic and primary orientation. We create tribal, societal, and national solidarity by delineating our tribe, the Good Tribe from the Other Tribe, the Evil Tribe, the Tribe of Strangers/Foreigners/Aliens whom we know nothing about.

Ignorance induces fear, xenophobia, induces a sense or perception of danger, induces paranoia, an imaginary or illusory impression of danger or threat. The need to find an Enemy, the need to create a bipolar opposition, Us versus Them, is a primordial animalistic impulse that goes back to when mankind was in a primitive, tribal state. In primeval times, man perceived the unknown and strangers as dangerous and as a threat. This was an almost unthinking reflex or instinct that was motivated by self-preservation. As man evolved, his reasoning faculty evolved to the point where reasoning overrode this primitive reflex.

But governments and political leaders and nations continue to exploit this primitive human psychological orientation to foment war. Aggregations of individuals into crowds, groups, religious groups, nationality and ethnic groups, must be motivated and incited to act. To do this, reason becomes secondary and governments and political leaders resort to the primordial impulses of the herd or tribe or crowd/mob, to a regressive or backward psychological orientation. Fear and insecurity must be engendered in the tribe/clan/nation. Concomitantly to fear and danger and insecurity the impulses of hatred and anger and intolerance are engineered. Governments and political leaders self-induce this irrational fear, paranoia, to advance national objectives. Invariably, a consensual paranoia is fomented and results, creating Outsiders versus Insiders, Us versus Them, the Good versus the Evil, the Free World versus the Communist bloc, “Freedom” versus “the Axis of Evil”, Christians versus Jews versus Muslims versus Hindus. The psychological mechanism is the same/identical in every case, consensual paranoia, a paranoia needed to foment hate, racism, bigotry, intolerance, and war, that is, the killing of others. Reason becomes degraded while a primordial paranoia is self-induced.

A perception of danger and of threat leads to intolerance and racism. The perception is what is needed to induce the paranoid orientation needed to kill. The danger or threat may be illusory or imagined, but it is only the sense of danger that is needed, the danger need not be real or present at all. Projection and transference then allow us to project or impute our worst vices onto a chosen enemy or scapegoat. What is the origin of a scapegoat? The term “scapegoat” was coined in 1530 by English religious reformer William Tyndale for a primal worldwide psychological mechanism for expiation of sin and crime. A scapegoat is a group, individual, nation, ethnic group, or religious group upon whom the crimes, sins, mistakes, or guilt of others is placed upon or imputed to. The term is derived from Late Latin caper emissaries, emissary goat, which is a translation of the Hebrew word azazel, name of a desert demon, or ezozel, a goat that escapes or leaves. In Leviticus 16:7-26, the Jewish high priest Aaron confessed the sins of the people of Israel over the head of a goat which was then let loose into the wilderness on the Day of Atonement. Transference or projection whether unto a goat, onto a nation, people, or religious group, or individual, thus serves a psychological function, a primordial and universal function.

Please keep in mind that I do agree that governments, politics and religion ALL OVER THE WORLD do use fear and emotion to maintain power.

BUT at the same time I do think it is unrealistic to expect humans not to form social structures. For Darwin's sake we see social structures throughout the animal kingdom. I think it is unreasonable to have an either or attitude which is what we accuse the world of. Life is not black and white and part of our species evolution which I think that we have to accept is that we are social animals and will flock to like minded people.

FACT, governments are going to happen. It is unavoidable. You are not going to have total anarchy nor are you going to want to live under an oppressive government whom doesn't like you.

We as atheists certainly would find it unacceptable if our countries banned us from being open, just as we find it horrible that Jews and Christians have no rights in Iran. I think it is also absurd to think that it is always good for government to provide everything for you. I also think it is absurd to always abandon people because they are poor.

Life is NOT black and white.

Unfortunately we live on a tiny little planet with limited resources and a biological imperative to overpopulate the planet. So war is the inevitable result of not implementing rational solutions to this situation. Nationalism and religious fervor are just useful tools to motivate soliders to go to war and civilians to support it. We're all cowards, so they have to use religion to convince soldiers they will live forever.

Andew Basevich is another who writes some interesting stuff on American Imperialism.  He's a retired Army colonel who now teaches at Boston College, I think.

two symbols which represent atheistic terror regimes, ironically.  

 eh, if you can't beat 'em, silence 'em.  right?

Nationalism is pretty fucking terrifying.

All these people buy "support the troops" magnetic ribbons to slap on their SUVs along with a magnetic american flag, while thinking they are somehow exceptional in the world simply because of where they were born.

Almost all of the people I've met that are blatantly nationalistic have NEVER LEFT THE COUNTRY, and have no intention of doing so. I get blank stares if I ask them how they know "USA is #1" in anything if they have never been anywhere else. But apparently USA is #1 in everything, because whenever I ask someone to clarify they just repeat themselves.

Yeah, the nationalism went out of control with 9/11. Yay for blind control of the masses.

I think soldiers in our military should be used to..well...defend their homeland. Not start wars on the other side of the planet for someone's pocketbooks employed in defense contracting. I feel bad because they are being used and thrown away, and I wish that wasn't the case. I watched a meeting with some GOP strategists where they talked about playing the "war" card, as a political strategy to improve standing with conservatives in this country. They were suggesting Obama should start a war. To improve his poll numbers. Yeah. What the fuck is that about.

Applying the geopolitical climate of these times to all time is a mistake. History clearly shows there are moments when national sovereignty must be defended under arms. The western allies did everything to avoid conflict in the late 30s, including betraying Czechoslovakia and Poland. You could argue they were upholding the spirit of the Atlantic Treaty but I think they understandably did not want to fight a ruinous war if they could avoid it. They failed to acknowledge there are times such things cannot and should not be avoided.

Personally I think the Iraq War money should have been invested in solar panels and electric cars but I can't bring myself to denigrate the rank and file soldiers, including their immediate leaders, who serve there. Maybe optional military operations like Iraq and Afghanistan should be a matter for referendum.

Just for the record if my country was invaded in a war of subjugation I would resist. There are other countries with whom I feel a connection that if attacked I would support. Judge me how you will.

So would I, without any doubt or hesitation - or even mercy - whatsoever.

I think it is natural and good to love your country, your family and friends, even your local community, its culture, customs and all the memories you have from whichever place it is that you think of as "home" (although these are usually ambiguous). It follows from this that it is also natural to want to defend it against violators in any which way that is necessary.

But I draw the line at getting all sentimental over symbols. Like for instance loving a fucking piece of cloth - a flag - or some hopelessly pompous piece of mediocre music - a national anthem - etc. etc. That's just retarded. If you serve a symbol you are a useful idiot to anyone with a vested interest in manipulating symbol structures for personal gain, i.e. sociopaths. Or, in the vernacular, you are a servant of evil. (Evil here and now defined as the product of psychopathic activity.)

Perhaps the thing here is recognition of that form of deception through which a society can bend good men's instinctive mechanisms through the application of fear, tricking us into fighting in defense but in circumstances where a present danger does not exist.