Atheism long and short term
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Religious folks, are told consistently to "be fruitful and multiply" Indeed, the muslim population seems to be exploding.
Thus my question, Atheists have always been around, perhaps the percentage has gone up a bit due to tech and more easily accessible scientific knowledge but I doubt it has gone up a lot. But again atheists wont have as many children I think. How long will it take for atheists to really have a say? How long will it be before we don't have to worry about sending troops to iraq with the blessing of "god". They are going to iraq and other countries to die and go to a better place right? Well as an atheist I know better of course, we send them to die and they are dead. Terrible. But I am getting off the subject.
I don't have kids, I am well aware of the self absorbed disease I have, along with many other people in the US. It is more obvious when people have kids of course, they plop them in front of the tv and go do their own thing. Or better yet, let their grandparents raise them. The world of entertainment we have makes it hard for me personally to care much about anything but going to work, getting off work and playing on the computer, watching a movie etc.
Will christians maintain their foothold, simply due to their dogma telling them to have many children to program into religion. I say maintain, because from what I read christians are actually on the decline. Muslims however are on the major upswing.
Will we always have this small percentage of numbers? I am not an atheist because I think it's "cool" or to be different, which at this time it does seem different. I would rather be what was considered normal but I don't see that happening in my lifetime. Simply because I probably wont have kids. (I have 2 dogs that act like kids 
)
I'm wondering what reasons other atheists have to bear children as well.
On a side note, if I DID have kids, I don't think I would ever force my beliefs (or non-beliefs) on them. I would rather they be able to make up their own minds as they grew. This would be on my mind all the time, so, no real atheist programming.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
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They should be able to choose freely what they want to believe in but knowing me they will be to smart to be a theist
That is where we are at a disadvantage. We don't do things "just because" some mythological utopia from the past written by goat herders tells us projectionist crap.
You have kids, because you want them. BUT what goes with that is also being able to provide for them. Religion tells you to fuck to make gang members. Atheists fuck because they want to, not because they have to.
I constantly get crap from my co-workers about not dating. I tell them what they don't want to hear. FIRST AND FOREMOST, I don't want to catch anything. SECONDLY, I cant afford a kid, even if I wanted one. Why the hell would I stick my dick in something just because others do?
I've said to them before. I'll make you a deal, I'll go on a date, and have sex, and if she get's pregnant, YOU foot the bill for 18 years. Otherwise don't tell me how I should live my life.
Then I get, "You don't know what you are missing"?
Like I cant observe what others go through?
I do know the pain of losing my pets. I freak out when my current pets get sick. THAT to me is gut wrenching enough. I don't find having a kid a badge of honor. I find it merely as being a desire, which is fine. But turning oneself into an indentured slave just because society tells you so?
I know plenty of atheists here with kids, but I bet on average, the atheists who have kids are much better planners.
EVEN IF I had the money, I wouldn't have kids. The worry alone would kill me.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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The thing that helps save us from being rapidly swamped by legions of people from the fast-breeder ideologies, is that evolution has helped ensure that the variations in genetically determined behaviour you get when you shuffle the genes in sexual reproduction still allow a significant chance of getting kids who aren't simple composite clones of there parents.
Then there is the fact that many even fully genetically determined attributes are often not dependent on one single gene, so you can still get attributes which are not shared by either parent.
And finally, what is probably the most special characteristic of humans is that many, maybe all, aspects of behaviour are not simply genetically determined. And the variation can include where the kid lies along a spectrum from fully inclined to adopt their parents ideas, to the wildly and stubbornly rebellious.
This has regularly been the downfall of isolated communities specifically established to live according to some ideology or other. They have no way to ensure that the kids will always be inclined to think the same way as they do.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Bob, while that is true, it is very rare that I find myself disagreeing with you.
Sure it is NOT an absolute that your offspring are going to think like you. BUT, you ARE more likely to think like them because toddlers and children are sponges and don't have the critical thinking skills at a young age.
We often, AND RIGHTFULLY, point out to Christians in the west that if they were born in Iraq instead, most likely they would grow up and maintain a belief in Allah.
NOW, I will say this, with the advent of the internet, it is becoming increasingly harder for religion all over the world to protect it's memes.
WOW, there must be a god, the unthinkable just happened!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Its really a matter of degree.
Yes, the children do tend to follow their parents.
I was just saying that kids who don't or can't accept the crap appear just often enough (barely) to stop societies from getting totally locked into a clone army.
It isn't a guarantee that totalitarian regimes and thought-police systems (AKA as authoritarian religions, which is most of them, to some extent) won't emerge and persist for way too long, but it is one of the things that can eventually cause them to collapse - they can't prevent some sufficiently motivated and pissed-off person, immune to the indoctrination, won't emerge eventually and find himself in a position to disrupt it before it can take over the world.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
We'd agree that rational thought, despite appearances to the contrary, is growing. 1000 years ago god knows what sort of crap people believed in. Hey, here's a thought. It would be great to meet ancient atheists and compare notes. Atheists from Greece and Rome, Mycenae, Babylon - Sumeria. Eygpt. They must have existed. There must have been a word for bullshit back then. And some special people (given what little was known) must still have looked around for the invisible gods and thought: "You're all talking total shit..."
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I'd like to think when neuroscience makes big progress there will be a decline in dualism, however facts like evolution and the Big Bang have rather dismal support from the non-scientific, so it could be a while.
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We do now. Very few people in actual positions of power are religious. However, apathy to the social issues that *we* atheists care about and profitability found in milking conservative ignorance for votes, work against that. If politicians (who are often religious) didn't rely on conservative votes for supporting moral police, they wouldn't be able to become elected and pass legislation benefiting large corporations as easily (wherein the power/funding for election lies).
No. Religious diffusion is growing (lateral conversions), and liberalism progresses at a constant, marching pace, making successive generations of parents less strict in enforcing purism.
There is no reason to believe that lateral conversions will become less common, and eventually the nature of "religion" will be so incoherent as to be more or less impossible to name.
See the movie Franklyn
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0893402/
The every-day bit isn't very interesting, but the futuristic vision of potential religion is almost prophetic.
Move to China (on the gold coast); it is the norm here. Not by virtue of critical thinking, though.
There are a series of correlations between having fewer children and atheism, but it isn't causative in either direction. Modern society with good education generally results in both secularization and falling reproductive rates.
I intend to yield as many offspring as I can (assuming I can locate an egg donor with a high enough IQ), but this doesn't have much to do with increasing the numbers of atheists, as it isn't a genetic condition. One can very easily contribute by teaching- as I often do- critical thinking skills to our and the next generation, be they your children or not.
You don't have to use physical force or emotional blackmail to ensure that a person will believe in something rational- mere education in critical thinking and reason can accomplish this implicitly.
Yea I think it is vastly more important to focus on education rather than procreation to increase the percentage of atheists. I'm a college undergrad and just from personal experience, I have to say that atheism or at least skepticism of organized religions is far more common in my generation than in the general population. In my class on the "great books" of western civilization we had to read the Bible and the qu'ran. When it came to discussion, they both got trashed rather blatantly brutally. I would say that easily 90 per cent of that class (22 students so a rather small sample size) was at least not religious in any way. Maybe I'm just at one of the more secular universities but i would feel comfortable in saying close to if not over 50 percent of my school is non religious. So I still have a lot of hope that within 10 years when we become more of a significant factor in the voting population politicians will have to take us seriously.
I think the number one way to increase the atheist population would be to get an atheist candidate for president in one of the major parties. I'm sure there are several "in the closet" atheist politicians, we just need them to come out. I doubt it will happen in 2012 but i have hope for 2016. Maybe Obama will be the first, but he would have to do it during or after his second term.
I Am My God
The absence of evidence IS evidence of absence
i was going to point this out
Well, I didn't want to point it out, but from what I see personally it looks grim. I am the only atheist I know. I know many people. I manage a shop and get to know many people, I don't have many actual friends, but, they don't have to be your friend to tell you all about how they go to church on sunday.
Again, I have no children myself. However 3 of my friends are probably lower on the iq scale, and they have a load of kids. Two of them have 4 kids and the other has 3. Now, I have other other friends that have one or two kids as well. My co-workers, whom are all idiots have kids as well. One of them has 7, another has 4. They go to church, drink beer, and watch football. This seems to be all they talk about. The town I live in is has a population of around 100k and has a huge multi million dollar church. They say going there is like going to a rock concert. Maybe it's just the area I live in. Come to think of it this town is terrible for jobs, and the young people tend to leave as soon as they get out of school. Yea it's probably demographics. I should travel more I guess.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
I have to say it has to be location location location. I have 1 daughter (more than enough for me, no more children, she was the perfect baby and so far a great child....no problems with attitude, etc, etc, etc.) Now I do have various other atheists friends and for the most part they all have children, with the exception of 1 couple, my sister is religious (born again christian and I swear she didn't it just be spite me as that has been our relationship for the past 18 years) and she has no intentions of having children, great aunt, but more than likely not a great mother.
Now none of my atheist friends have more than three kids, actually I think only one couple has three kids, everyone else has 2. As for my christian friends more of them are childless than my atheist friends. I can think of about 4 couples with out kids. compared to my 1 atheist couple....and that is in regards to 6 couples on each side that I can think of.
It really is a matter of you trying to indoctrinate people with your bullshit science every chance you get and having become unaware that you are even doing it.
Because theists never do that, I never even saw a big building made for such a thing!
lol the bs science allows you to post on the internets! Don't knock it too hard.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
You are beginning to suggest Idiocracy. You should check out the movie.
The basic premise is exactly what you are saying...that all the lower IQ people just keep breeding while higher IQ people wait for the right moment.
I think you will find that the second or third time you watch it is much funnier than the first.
Mike Judge wrote the movie. He is the same guy who did Office Space.
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
My country was settled by convicts who no doubt wanted to focus on drinking rum and shagging. If there were TVs they would have been in front of them. Their IQs were arguably (tho not assuredly) lower than the population from which they sprang. To all intents and purposes 200 years later, that influence is invisible except that Australians, while placid politically, dislike authority. Consider the population choke point 170,000 years ago. Who knows how dozey that group of padfoots might have been back then? Maybe they survived the cataclysm/ice age or whatever because they were asleep in a cave or mud wrestling in a swamp instead doing high-browed cultural shit. The point is that over time, things balance out, including the ratio of dummies to smarties. Regardless, rationality is demonstrably winning. In Australia we're about 30 per cent atheist. That's a big improvement on 100 years ago when the catholics and protestants used to sneak out at night and throw rocks through each other's windows for sport.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Well, of course it does! If the Internet and Personal Computer had not so obviously evolved from an eggplant I couldn't taunt you so unmerciful.
You claim we knock the bible without understanding it, yet you knock science without understanding it. Hypocrite much?
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I have nothing against science. It isn't a subject that interests me, but I have nothing against it. You mistake evolution with science in general? I'm not completely ignorant on evolution, I am not terribly interested in it, but since you constantly bring it up what are your thoughts on Ramapithecus?
You called science (not evolution) bullshit. Doesn't sound indifferent to me. You present an extremely twisted example of science that clearly shows you don't understand it, and clearly shows your view of its inferiority. Your question is entirely irrelevant.
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I called Bob's science bullshit. If my question is entirely irrelevant then perhaps my answer is relevant.
“As far as one can say at the moment, it is the first representative of the human family." The evolutionist said of Ramapithecus, "The evidence concerning Ramapithecus is considerable - though in absolute terms it remains tantalizingly small: fragments of upper and lower jaws, plus a collection of teeth." In school the kids looked in awe upon the drawings that were made of an upright ape man. Decades later the evolutionist were forced to answer the question "How did Ramapithecus . . . reconstructed only from teeth and jaws - without a known pelvis, limb bones, or skull - sneak into the evolutionary school books?” The answer? It was bullshit.
What about Lucy? Australopithecus? Are those entirely irrelevant as well?
First, bob knows more about science than I do, so you calling his explanation bullshit without proof shows your lack of understanding.
Second, while 'not completely ignorant on evolution,' you act as if you have proper authority on the issue to decree bob wrong on his understanding of evolution. Where does this authority come from? How exactly are you right with your minor interest, but generations are wrong with their passion AND frustration?
Third, what about them? They share common ancestors with various species including our own. How do they factor into this conversation, exactly? That science and evolution can be misconstrued and extrapolated unnecessarily? That you are behind the times in questioning evolution in any sort of scientific way? Just wiki ramapithecus, for christ's sake; it isn't even contemporary information. Check out Ardi, we just found her a few years ago.
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Fake evolution, dude. Taught to children in school. An example of how "scientific evidence of evolution" is bullshit. It is probably just a matter of a few decades and Ardi will be in the same boat. You need to think for yourself and stop believing everything science says.
I can't decide if you're joking or if you actually meant that....
Anyway, I find the original discussion interesting because I've recently decided that I don't ever want to have kids. Ever. And I only came to this decision a few months after I stopped believing in God. But I don't think I felt like it was my duty or purpose to God to make babies, or anything like that. It just seemed like something that was going to happen sooner or later. Now, however, I've really considered what I want out of life and raising a child is not at all a part of my dream. I just find it strange that I never came to that conclusion before I started calling myself 'atheist'.
Dave hasn't said this but I think he might believe satan put the fossil record there or that scientists are faking it so they can go on living sinful lives. I can't imagine the tediously boring sins researchers would be into.
Maybe they fake their journal entries.
I wouldn't write off the kid thing completely. You're only young and what's important to you may change in the future. There's no rush, either. My business partner is pregnant at 44 and she planned to never have kids.
Having run a business for 15 years and had more freedom than a liver can reasonably be expected to handle she just suddenly thought, ummm, yeah, look. I think I'll do that after all.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I was told the "young" thing for many years. I wanted to get snipped when I was 21, and no doctor would do it until I was 30. That was my 30th birthday present to myself. I am 42 now and have absolutely no regrets.
My wife was told the same thing too until she was 30...she isn't told that much anymore, although she still gets strange looks when she says she doesn't want kids. When people ask why, she simply states "I hate kids. They suck." I don't hate kids, but I always like the idea of giving them back to their parents when they get unruly.
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
Rama was a mythical prince of India, so when fragments of upper and lower jaws and some teeth were discovered in India the findings became known to the evolutionary science realm as Ramapithecus, an alleged human ancestor.
For decades Ramapithecus appeared in schoolbooks and evolutionary literature illustrated as an ape-man.
Until finally it was discovered that Ramapithecus was only an ape, not our oldest ancestor. He is no longer taught as such. The same with Australopithecus. The New York Times declared: “It was Australopithecus . . . that eventually evolved into Homo sapiens, or modern man.” For years taught as our ancestor, later discovered not to be. The same with Lucy and Homo erectus . . . evolution is bullshit. A desperate attempt to discover some origins of species which constantly has to correct itself, is subject to extremely irresponsible deduction and observation and downright fraud. The ex-Christian finds themselves leaping out of the frying pan and into the fire placing their blind faith in evolutionary theory.
@Blake: I agree, as long as society does not collapse religion will continue to liberalize and secularism will spread. Even now, a huge number of the religious live totally secular lives.
@Kid haters: Geeze, I chose to have children and I enjoy the experience very much. We are planning on adopting another one next year. Kids are great!
@David: Ok, I am starting to think you are just fucking with us. You *literally* say, "I don't understand or care about science or evolution." and immediately turn around and try to convince us that evolution is wrong because of some bullshit you mined off of an anti-evolution smear site. Your example is perfect...scientists agree it was false, but it isn't a big deal since evolution has mountains of data backing it up. It doesn't *need* more data. You claim to have no caring or understanding for a thing, then make sweeping proclamations and generalizations about the same thing. Total irrationality.
You know what I think? I think you *are* passionate about evolution but you hide your incompetence and ignorance behind a shield of pretend apathy so you can limit the pain of being made to look like a fool every time you open your mouth on the subject.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I think if you want to have kids and get a genuine enjoyment from them, you should have them. I am pretty ambivilant, and in fact, my decision not to have kids comes from more of an internal knowledge of myself. I just don't think I would make a good father, and I don't want to subject any child to that. My wife just hates kids, which works just fine for me as I don't want to have any. My point is that people have also come down hard on my wife and I for not having kids, as though we have violated some moral imperative.
Some people want kids, others don't. I think as atheists we are a bit more free to make that decision, as we have no obligation. I think there are many people out there who have kids who do so out of moral obligation (to their god, church, or immediate family) who become very unhappy because of it.
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
That's completely fine, I never figured out why people with kids want other people without kids to have them, it's a choice people make, some want kids others don't, it's ok people if we are a few kids short....I mean so far we are at what close to 7 billion humans, a few less ain't going to hurt us.
My sister doesn't want kids, yet her friends that do always ask her when she is going to have kids, why doesn't she want them etc, etc, etc. I know why she doesn't want them, it craps her lifestyle and she would not be a good mom, she's a great aunt no doubt, but like you said, when my daughter gets to be too much, back to me she comes.
But it's also true that priorities change. I'm unconcerned with the kid thing either way but given I'm your age I'm also aware the person I am at 42 and the person I was at 22 are not the same things.
Anyway, I agree with you that it's a totally personal decision. I always thought I would have no kids because I did not want to condemn another life to the lake of fire! Them's the trevails of a fundy upbringing for you.
Ultimately, it comes down to what feels right at a given time.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Where else am I going to get my fix of indian history/conspiracy theory combined?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I think there is a segment of people who have kids that harbor a bit of envy towards those who are able to live a different lifestyle by not having children. It is a projection of "You are having fun, now you have had enough. Go have kids, will ya?" I am not saying that you fall in that category. I just see many out there who do.
I also think that many people are threatened by those who do not conform, and having a family is a part of that societal conformity. They may not overtly feel that way, but the sub-conscious comes out (or however you want to paraphrase the sub-conscious) and ends up as a need to have others "join the group". I think a good number of theists fall into this category. Not only is it bad enough that I am an atheist, I also won't go forth and multiply...kind of a screw you double-whammy.
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
Totally agree with you on priorities. I would take it a step further just to say that my worldview has changed quite a bit over the years. I am not the same person at 17 that I was at 21, that I was at 25, or that I was at 35. This is a good thing; it means that I am trying to improve as a person. I see life as a daily challenge to increase my strengths and minimize my weaknesses.
For me, I saw that I was very much like my father, who really valued solitude and study along with a strong work ethic. These are qualities that I admire, but they don't go hand-in-hand with raising a child. He didn't really wrong me, but we didn't even form much of a bond until I was an adult and could speak more at his level. I just felt that something was missing throughout my life while I grew up under him. So even at a young age, I knew that I had these same qualities, and I didn't want to subject a child to the same thing, and that feeling hasn't changed at all.
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
I will note, as far as my friends go, ( they all claim to be christians) I had 3 good friends out of high school. Of course I had other "friends" but I woud not call them "good" friends. I might have them over for a beer and a movie or something. By good friends I mean people who will actually take time out and give you a hand with something and with whom you would do likewise.
Now these 3 friends each got girls pregnant fresh out of high school. They each subsequently married the girls. less than a year later all 3 of them had divorced. One of them, conceieved a child with a stripper after his bachelor party. Later after his divorce (which of course was helped along with the revelation that he had cheated the day before his wedding) He got another girl pregnant out of wedlock. This friend is now paying child support on 3 kids. Child support has no real bearing I just mention it because it has ruined his life in a monetary sense, and he does not really seem to have any interest in his kids.
Now the second friend only had 1 child, since then he has not had another nor has he remarried. GG, lol.
The third friend, had a second child with his wife, then divorced, remaried and had 2 more kids, now he has 4 kids and paying child support on 2 of them.
Now I'll mention a co-worker, he is a hardcore catholic, he goes to church w/ his family each sunday and has been talking lately about his upcoming baptism next month. He has 7 kids by 4 women..who are also all catholic.
These people are all religious..supposedly, I mean, look at this divorce rate and obvious "messing around" But all these kids are growing up with religious beliefs instilled in them. Mostly from very unchristianlike christians.
I suppose what I am saying is that it seems convenient that christians, at least the ones I know can completely ignore the tenants of their own faith, and at the same time propogate it further?
If the children understood what was happening, would they fall for the ploy of religion in the first place based on evidence such as this?
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Nice observation, I am a fool who never even considered what a normal person would think if the bible were not shoved in their face from birth. I assume most people had it in their face by default, lol.
Now that I do think about it, I suppose a more realistic outlook would be developed. Especially with the tech we have now and some proof of evolution which can be observed without even being told, if only one takes the time to notice..
In ancient times, back when a rock and a stick were paramount to survival, and lightning was scary god's would be developed. Yea we are well above that now.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
you should have kids if you want to have kids, and for no other reason. It's stupid to have kids just so you have more people with your beliefs(or non-beliefs).
Yea, this totally reminds me of idiocracy though.
edit: holy shit, it's on comedy central right now.
ciarin.com
I was looking up Robert Jeffress, and I see on his site:
OUR MISSION is to provide practical application of God’s Word to everyday life through clear, Biblical teaching.
Our goal is to lead people to become obedient and reproducing disciples of Jesus Christ, as He commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.
As a side note he is the guy that built the huge multi million dollar church here in town...and then left for dallas. I would like to see some debating with him actually. I used to watch him on tv and he always made claims about having so much proof of things in the bible. Yes I watched church shows on sunday mornings for a laugh.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin