Slow wave sleep, anesthesia, coma and death
Among many of the theist-atheist debates, twits like Dinesh D'Souza use the death argument. That is, atheists cannot disprove life after death any more than theists can prove the contrary. And yet none of the atheist master debaters (ha! ha! couldn't help myself) don't bring up the counter-arguments of absent states of consciousness which lie on a spectrum between being fully alert and aware at one end and death at the other.
All 6 billion of us have all experienced slow wave sleep. In fact, 20% of sleep is during this stage in the average adult and much greater in children. Dreaming occurs 80% in REM sleep and the remaining 20% (usually vague visual/auditory imagery) occurs during light non-REM sleep. We are totally unconscious during deep slow wave sleep. General anesthesia is no different and untreated slow wave coma is simply progression to the point of no return towards death.
The unconsciousness while brain dead or during these reversible states is no different and without God, angels, demons, heaven or hell.
Among the celebrity atheists, I think only Sam Harris has used scientific arguments such as this. For example, let's make the silly assumption that there is life after death. Does one have the ability to speak in Paradise? If someone suffers a massive stroke involving the dominant hemisphere, speech and language are totally destroyed. Even subjectively, that individual cannot even carry on a conversation in his/her own head. Does that person remain aphasic in the afterlife?
Any textbook of neuroscience makes it clear. Mind is the result of brain. Brain dies then so does mind. You don't need to die and come back to life to figure this one out.
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Interesting idea there. I guess that I must be someone special among master debaters because I like to use the Terry Schiavo case whenever the opportunity comes up. Long before the right to life idiots made her into a celebrity, brain scans showed that something like 80% of her brain was gone.
On a related topic, since you deal with this topic professionally, do you have any reliable links on the subject of NDE's? I ask because I have known two people who claimed to have had them and neither of them described the “standard profile” that is often trotted out to show, well nothing really but the people who talk about that stuff seem to think that if they can just list like 3 to 5 similar experiences that they have somehow suggested something.
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So does this mean that if one could emulated the function of the brain on a massive supercomputer, my mind would be running on this machine? Could science one day transfer all one's memories and neural pathways to a computer and thus we would continue to live on without the mind? Does science have any clue as to why I am me and not someone else(and you are you and not someone else)?
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I may get outclassed by a neuro buff somewhere but I'll say no. A brain depends on input from millions of different stimuli throughout the body. Whether coming from the outside world (auditory, visual, sensory) or from within. Basically, every innervated cell has the ability to contact the brain and the brain has a corresponding area that integrates, interprets, and responds to each stimuli. There would be, in my eyes, no way to take the infinite neural pathways and connections throughout the body and transfer that information into some sort of technology.
People who are completely paralyzed still have trillions of connections throughout the body regulating the CNS and PNS, etc. These systems are dependant upon feedback from your brain, organs, and outside stimuli. Without those organs, each system would have no function.
In all of this complexity, it is easy to see that the "mind" is most definitely a function of the brain. As well, the brain controls almost all movement/function/regulation in the body. Therefore, without a body providing stimuli, billions of neurons in the brain have no function. Due to the trillions of interconnections within the brain and the dependancy of each neuron upon the other, I don't think a brain can exist and function without a body. Even if you someone did map every single neuron in the brain and find out its specific function, the task of making techniological equivalents of neurotransmittors, cerebrospinal fluid, blood, and associated organs/glands/muscles that cannot exist without the brain (and the brain cannot function properly without them) is not possible. Higher level thinking cannot take place without stimuli from the body- thus the brain cannot survive without a body.
... I now realize after running around in circles for the past twenty minutes and only coming up with the above answer that this question has more to it then I thought. I have a basic understanding of the brain, and a better understanding of the body. But I know that the codependance between the two of them is unbreakable. Anyone care to elaborate more?
I can answer the second part of your question with relative ease-- science has DNA to show that I am me and you are you. Any individual cell in your body can be identified as "yours". Its as simple as that.
I completely agree with you, but couldn't theists just point to some sort of "soul" argument and just go from there?
The fact is that the brain itself isn't going to die all at once. Certain neurons will outlive others, regardless of if it is one second or two minutes. Based on your argument, each "mind" will become progressively more aphasic as brain cells die until every neuron dies and there is nothing left. There is no finite line between life and death, as you said it is a continuum. When people are announced dead by a coroner, a large portion of them is still biologically alive. These pieces of viable tissue, whether neuronal, muscular, or bone can still function with appropriate electrical stimulation. So when does "death" happen? Someone is deemed dead in various different states of decomposition. In the case of an acute trauma, I would venture to guess that at least 10% of your brain cells could die due to lack of blood flow before you would actually pass out from hypotension.
The examples go on and on. I just realized your argument is hilarious, as if an afterlife existed everyone would enter it with severe cognitive deficits.
There is a lot of controversy over this. If we could replace each neuron with a microchip with a binary code (1-on, 0-off), can we therefore replicate a mind on a computer? Or does mind also depend on subneuronal systems ie. at the level of ion channels and biochemistry? There is no doubt that we are machines but at what level of complexity does the machine acquire a mind. Based on your view, the coral reef as a whole could have something like a mind. I think it would be cool if we could one day engineer hyperintelligent synthetic minds with all aspects of pleasure, wants and desires programmed in. They would inherit civilization. It would be the ultimate transhumanist libertarian dream.
I am regularly consulted to see patients who suffered massive hypoxic brain injury (eg. secondary to cardiac arrest) and the issue of NDE is never raised in Neurology. NDE is heavily tainted with pseudoscience and thus there is no well designed objective study on this matter. If say a thousand atheists (and I mean hardcore like Dawkins, Hitchens or Harris) and a thousand theists were successfully resuscitated and asked about any recalled visual phenomenon, then this would be a well designed scientific study. And what about folks who are blind since birth? If they are brought back from the brink, what sort of NDE do they experience? I suspect that the majority of those who study NDE "scientifically" are supernaturally biased to begin with and are not truly objective.
It takes about 9 minutes for electrocerebral activity to cease. If mind is the electrical activity of the brain, then mind ceases.
Why unbreakable? That sounds like the old argument that the heart or liver or whatever is so interconnected with the body that attempting a transplant would be impossible. And yet, we have transplants.
There are two main boundaries between brain and body. One is, appropriately enough, called the blood-brain barrier, which prevents blood and other fluids from mingling with the cerebro-spinal fluid.
The second is less obvious, but no less real. It is the information barrier which can be represented by the synapses which separate the sensory and motor nerves from the central nervous system, especially the brain itself. What passes between two neurons is more or less simply a *signal*. The neurotransmitters are, appropriately enough, merely the transmitters of that signal. The signal itself is then filtered, amplified, and propagated by the neuron's internal machinery, resulting in what can only be called a *digital* nerve impulse. That means that the ultimate cause of the impulse is irrelevant to the effect of the impulse.
If surgeons cut out my eye and replaced it with a sophisticated camera, and an electronic-nerve interface which simulated the same nerve impulses my original retina would have produced, I would literally be able to *see* out of the camera. The camera may have to simulate various biological quirks like eye saccades and iris control, but these are quite doable.
This basic principle, if we imagined to connect every incoming and outgoing nerve from the brain to some appropriate piece of mechanical technology, is how you can imagine the information barrier between the mind and the outside world. This is the basis of the (in)famous brain-in-a-vat thought experiment. How do we know that we aren't simply brains in vats in some mad scientist's laboratory? Or, the Matrix? Or, my favourite version: How do we know we haven't voluntarily entered a game of world simulation, where we're on a kind of 'mind vacation' from the *real* reality which is very much unlike the one we experience here? Perhaps our human brains are simply simulated visualizations of the underlying computer technology which allows playback of the simulated reality to our *real* 'brains' in the *real* world.
Aside from that bit of fantasy, the principle that the information coming into our minds is independent of its specific source is quite solid. We already have several technologies which rely on this principle, though few that are commercially available.
So, what about the blood-brain barrier? The things that cross it are fairly simple: water, nutrients such as glucose, hormones, some drugs, etc. There is nothing here which is so crucial and so complex that it makes sense to say that the codependence of brain and body is unbreakable. Most of these things have nothing to do with the mind, and are simply life-support for the brain's biology. Even drugs and hormones only affect the brain as overall 'levels' which affect all the cells of the brain globally.
The real complex stuff happens across the information barrier, and this is finite and computable. Let's look at some specifics:
There are not 'infinite' neural pathways. The brain is decidedly finite. Each neuron has on the order of thousands of connections (synapses) with other neurons. This puts the brain somewhere in the neighbourhood (ballpark, you can google more accurate numbers) of trillions to quadrillions of connections. Yes, it is very big. No, it is not outside the realm of possibility for simulation with technology. We already have fairly sophisticated simulations of single neurons, and even some sophisticated simulations of large clusters of neurons. Again, the important thing is the information signal, not the particular medium (neurotransmitters) nor the life-support (water, nutrients, etc.). A neuron, from the point of view of the mind that it gives rise to, is basically a complex electrical switch. Quite complex, but not outside the plausibility of extremely accurate simulation.
A brain in a computer would not have any need of heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, or any other merely biological life-support. All it needs is a plug, a transformer, and an A/C outlet. Really, all it needs is a power source. There is nothing crucial to 'mind' that comes from the maintenance of this basic life-support. Some things, such as the feelings you get from various activities, for example the endorphins released from exercise, could be easily simulated as global 'levels' in the simulation software.
We may need to provide some form of motor control for the person to remain sane, but such control could easily be supplied by technology. Even a video-game interface into a virtual world would be a good start. Allowing the person to control a robotic body would be a step up from that.
How much time do you spend sitting in front of your computer anyway, with almost all movement reduced to holding an erect sitting posture and moving hands and fingers on mouse and keyboard? You're not telling me this is so stupendously complex such that we'll never be able to simulate it, are you?
We've learned recently that the brain is incredibly plastic. Whatever parts of the brain find themselves without use will quickly learn how to take on different roles to enhance the ability of whatever job neighbouring neurons are currently occupied with.
Also, the 'body' we can provide a simulated brain could potentially be anything we could construct, real or simulated. Want to be a dragon flying around in a virtual world? We can do that. Certainly, if we can simulate a brain, we'll have the technology to make today's 3D games look like finger painting.
Sounds like a non-sequitur to me. We already have artificial hearts, iron lungs, dialysis machines, etc. The brain does not suddenly begin to fail when we replace its life-support with mechanical assistance. Helen Keller was blind and deaf, and yet she learned how to cope in the limited world available to her.
A simulated brain would not be cut off from the world, it would just have a different interface to the world. Not biological, but mechanical. Give it an internet connection, and its 'world' would expand probably bigger than even ours is.
The interesting thing about neurons is that they don't really have 'specific functions'. The adapt and learn whatever function is needed of them. They are like inter-changeable CPUs which are able to discover whatever information processing is necessary for them to perform. If they are connected to an eye, they will learn to 'see'. If they are connected to an ear, they will learn to 'hear'. There is a good deal of brain architecture which ensures that some neurons will be connected to eyes and some to ears, but the cerebral cortex is largely a blank slate. The lower parts of the brain are more hard-wired, but they do not account for the majority of the complexity of the human brain.
Most of that you wouldn't even need to simulate. And the parts that you would, you wouldn't have to simulate to any great detail. For example, you wouldn't need to simulated the chemical structure of a neurotransmitter, you'd only have to simulate how much of it is present in the synapse. And even then, you wouldn't have to be precise in the simulation; as long as the simulated neuron behaves digitally the same as a biological neuron, you've functionally simulated the neuron.
You can't perform math without stimulus from your digestive tract? What?
Say I was unlucky enough to lose all four of my limbs. Would I still be able to do math? How about if my liver and kidneys failed, but the hospital had technological replacements. Would I suddenly be unable to do math? How about if I lost my heart, lungs, stomach, intestines, spine, torso, and basically was just a head attached to a bunch of tubes and a supply of blood. Would I be unable to do math? What if, like Helen Keller, I was also blind and deaf. Would I lose the ability to add 2+2?
Say my only ability to see was to be able to see an 80 character wide by 50 character wide screen which was flashed symbols to my optic nerve, allowing me to read a simple unix/dos-like computer interface. And the only ability I had to 'move' was to move a simple flashing cursor around the screen, and to 'type' one of 256 possible characters at a time. And the only ability to 'hear' was to hear a simple 8 bit tone. No signals came from anywhere else. Would I be unable to do math? To read an email? To write a reply? To read an ebook? To write a book of my own? To explain why I don't believe in gods?
No. My world would at first seem quite tiny, but I wouldn't suddenly lose the ability to think. Any feedback I got from the outside world would be just as meaningful to me as we get from our relatively vast senses. I might even get quite adept at manipulating my little world. I might request that someone hook up my cursor movement to a control which moves a little robot around, and my 80 by 50 screen to a digital camera which converts images into ASCII art which vaguely represents what the robot sees, and my 8-bit sound-card to a little microphone, allowing me to hear vaguely what's going on wherever the little robot is. It would be a relatively impoverished experience, but the point is simply that I don't need a biological body to have a 'body'.
For the case of consciousness, it's even easier than that.
Where 'you' are, there is a brain hooked up to senses, and that brain experiences the world from where it is, and has memories from where it has been. That experience, and those memories, *are* you. Likewise, where 'I' am, there's a different brain with a different perspective and different memories, and those experiences and memories are me.
If my mind were duplicated and simulated on a computer, then I, here, would remain me. And the new mind where the computer is, and which experiences whatever it experiences based on whatever 'senses' it's hooked up to, would inherit my memories, but would begin experiencing the world from a different perspective and with different memories, and would no longer be identical to me, here. It would be me, there. And soon it would become not-quite-me, there.
Just like identical twins, sharing identical DNA, are not the same person, because they inhabit different bodies.
You are you because there you are. I am me because here I am. I'm not there, and you're not here. Easy.
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First things first, at least I can at least say I told you I would get set straight by a neuro buff. I have a few comments though...
I think that your explanation and reasoning behind it is sound. I'm very into the human body, but my studies in school have basically been based on the neck down (human movement, physiology, pathology, etc). During my studies, I have gained an immense respect for the human body. When I run across certain things, I can't help but be amazed at all of the intricacies.
In theory, I'll concede that it is possible. In practice, I have my doubts, especially with the idea that we would be able to make a body for the brain.
In regard to NTM, electrolytes and the like You said:
"Most of that you wouldn't even need to simulate. And the parts that you would, you wouldn't have to simulate to any great detail. For example, you wouldn't need to simulated the chemical structure of a neurotransmitter, you'd only have to simulate how much of it is present in the synapse. And even then, you wouldn't have to be precise in the simulation; as long as the simulated neuron behaves digitally the same as a biological neuron, you've functionally simulated the neuron."
You would have to be precise with the amount of digital NTM released into each synapse. With even a slight variation in the amount of NTM, you are looking at a different signal to the next digi-neuron. If that neuron is slightly off on the amount of NTM, you are looking at a different signal. It's like a bad game of telephone that we used to play as kids. Without clear, precise instruction the final message could end up being "My dog ate under eighty eighths of grammar" instead of the intended message. The human body is exact: there is no rounding up or down.
Another example: Cells are driven just as much through electrical impulses as chemical reactions. Cells can be permeable to certain substances at certain points and impermeable during others based on its current contents, its pH, it's membrane potential. Beside that, we have protein carriers that can carry impermeable substances into and out of cells that are always working. To say that these functions can be handled through technology with the certainty you did is a stretch to me. Things we ingest, the exogenous environment, our electrolyte balance, the contents of our blood, the amount of blood in our system, and a multitude of other factors contribute to how we feel at that moment and what our next course of action is. Replicating this through technology seems like a tall task.
If you replicate a brain perfectly, all of the motor centers and cranial nerves wouldn't function properly with whatever body you asked it to operate correctly whether a neuron is pliable or not. Speaking of that, you said that neurons in the brain are pliable- they are able to change their function and do what is needed of them. Is that replicable using technology? Can you program a digital brain to follow the exact mechanisms of short term memory that a biological brain has? The mechanisms of memory are known on a macro scale. However, it is still unknown the exact time span that short term memory lasts, when it becomes long term memory, and how long those memories will last for.
You said "Also, the 'body' we can provide a simulated brain could potentially be anything we could construct, real or simulated. Want to be a dragon flying around in a virtual world? We can do that. Certainly, if we can simulate a brain, we'll have the technology to make today's 3D games look like finger painting."
My one problem with that statement is that the brain controls every inch of movement we make. The tactile descrimination between each one of our fingers is basically a couple of cells. We have neurons in the brain that are functioning with the purpose of controlling those small motor movements. How can you just play mix and match and expect the brain to catch up. It was designed to control our ten fingers and toes. So with a new "body", however it is made, which cells will be regulated to the task of beating the dragon's wings? Which ones will control the extra movement needed due to the fact that a dragon is a whole lot bigger than a human? How would you be able to make smooth, athletic motions without the capacity in the brain to control a massive tail that dictates everything about your balance?
Lastly you talked about iron lungs, new hearts, etc that we have made that can work in humans. When these are implanted, they work at a rate independant of what the body needs. That is, a new heart has no sympathetic/parasympathetic innervation. It cannot account for our outside surroundings. It will pump blood, and we can live with it, but we are functionally impaired.
You may be able to replicate a human brain someday. That brain may be able to function in the way you say. But, it will not be an exact replica of someone else's. The precision needed for that is beyond the scope of man.
That's the beauty of the human body: We have been studying it for hundreds of years and we still have no idea how it works in certain realms.
I very much disagree. The body is not exact. A large chunk of personality and other psychological disorders stem from imbalance in NTs. Also, the telephone analogy kind of oversimplifies the situation. A mech-brain would be extremely complicated, and one reason is because of the algorithms developed to counteract nonsensical transmissions, like the one you provide. I guess it could help cure psychological disorders if you think about it. But yeah, the body and the brain are not perfect. Basically all psychological disorders would disagree with you on signal perfection in the brain. Ever have a headache?
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I think we are in agreement here-- you may have missed my point. I am defending the position that a computerized brain would not be able to simulate that of a real human brain. it was stated that we can make a computerized brain that would be an exact replica of a person's brain with all of their memories, quirks, etc and said brain would act and work as the biological pair would.
** Edit: So I want to slightly alter the statement I made to avoid misinterpretation. The statement: "The human body is exact: there is no rounding up or down"- What I meant but could not properly articulate: "Each signal within the human brain is exact. It is an end result of an imperfect mechanism and therefore cannot be simulated. The computer would not be able to round up or round down and throw a predetermined amount of NTM into the junction- a different message and therefore a different response would result."
I am saying that it is impossible to do due to the fact that each brain functions differently, with specific amount of NTM being released at each junction. Whether some NT binds, all of it binds, some is reabsorbed by the original cell, or some is left in the synaptic junction is highly variable based on time of day, energy level, stress, and other factors. A computer would not be able to compensate for these mechanisms. After being passed along neuron to neuron, the message reaches it's destination and elicits a response. I don't believe a computer can duplicate that.
That's what I said in the last message- the body is studied and an understanding at the macro level is obtained. There are too many factors involved in each individual for an exact replica of their brain to be made into a functioning computer. Every brain has pathology. Pathology would be hard to replicate as it is sometimes unpredictable.
A computerized brain would not be able to account for our own body's imperfections. A digital brain can be made, and it could function as its own entity, but I do not think anyone can ever create a digital clone of a biological brain. It's too dynamic, with too many factors that can easily change its function.
Did I clarify or am I just on a wild tangent? been studying all day and i'm fried
My point was that, if sophisticated enough (and providing science can fully explain the mind), it could. That is why it would be hella-complex. It would know how to factor in those nuances, by sheer nature of the fact (in our hypothetical future here) that we could explain all of the brain's activity. If we know everything about the brain, what would stop us from incorporating that into the program? Every example you give could, feasibly, be created as a program, if those functions aren't truly random. I think our distinction would be here: If there is a truly random component, then a predictive system built into robo-brain wouldn't be capable of mimicking bio-brain's outputs exactly. It would, however, still be mimicking a human brain, and would consequently be a new brain, with just the slightest differences building up through time. It would be a new you to experience the world differently from that point on. The implications are freaky.
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I'm not so sure consciousness is quite so simple. Suppose one uses a computer to replace part an area of one part of the brain. Does this then become part of one conscience or not. What about people that have had the connections between their left and right hemispheres severed. Are they then two people. Could the Internet become one 'conscience' given sufficient connectivity? Is an ant colony one conscience or many little ones?
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Perhaps it's connectivity that creates conscieness and not a mind.
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This is assuming that it is possible to learn absolutely everything about the brain. Learning everything about a dynamic, changing, never before studied object is not possible. Each individual brain follows a broad set of guidelines- not rules of practice that must be followed. Three different workers at 3 different McDonalds will make the same tasting burger for you, but they aren't going to do it in the same time, with the same placement of the pickle and the exact same amount of ketchup. Same with 3 different human brains: Same ingredients, different ways of getting to an end product. It's not a case of "I've seen one, I've seen them all".
Just as much, the individual brain itself is always changing. Unless you could map every single neuron instantaneously cloning is impossible to do. Think about it. Say it took the brain-engineer a mere day to view every single neuron in the brain and determine its function (that's assuming there is some futuristic machine that could analyze billions of neurons in a day. In order to do this, you would have to run the gamut of functions: figure out which neuronal groups do large scale things like flex the shoulder, which ones help you remember where you live, and the tiny group that controls the ability to flex to distal interphalengeal joint of your pointer finger. You would have to see which neurons fired during which movements (yes there is a general area of the brain where these neurons can be found in most people, but you need to find every individual one). Even during this time it took to collect data, the brain is making new synapses, logging new information (This seat is cold, etc). Neurons are making new connections with other neurons to store information, interpret input, and send responses. Simultaneously, others are disconnecting (trivial information not needed, forgetting whether the building he just walked into was white or red, basically anything). For sake of argument, lets say the scientist started anteriorly and worked posteriorly. By the time he was done, the prefrontal cortex map might have radically different synapses from that of the occipital lobe. If you want to put it in terms of technology, it would be like this forum filled with a whole mess of broken hyperlinks.
Broken hyperlinks cannot get you from point A to point B, you only end up stuck with a white screen. I just don't see it, but it's a fun hypothetical idea.
Looks like I cross posted. I wrote two paragraphs. He summed it up in 1 sentence.
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I am simply saying it could be possible. I understand feasibility is low, but if computing power increases as it has for the past few decades the kind of power necessary COULD exist within centuries. Basically I'm just saying never say never. Humans hadn't a clue what electricity was, and look what it did for technology. I'd think it likely that we could make machines that were more efficient than our bodies, so why not the brain too? I think evolution has sort of handed the keys over from nature to our brains. It is quicker to develop a drug than it is to evolve a genetic advantage against a type of germ.
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