Alternatives to prayer?
Offline I was watching the sports highlights last night. There was an NBA player that passed out during the game and had to be taken to the hospital. While this was going on, all the players on both teams gathered in a circle to pray. Now NBA players are not known for their high moral standards, but this is what society expects. That if you care, you must pray. The NBA's motto is 'NBA cares'.
So what should the atheist response to this be? Do we stand off by ourselves and let a majority think we don't care? Or do we need to invent an alternative gesture? What could the alternative be? Does society need some kind of gesture to show you care, kind of like we need another handshake when we meet meet someone new?
P.S. I just love mixing football with religion. The coach tells the players to go out there and knock some heads off and leads them in prayer to give them the courage to go out on the field and do it. Then when a player gets seriously injured, they all gather round to pray for them. Wouldn't it just be best not to play the game at all, rather than try to get Mr. Invisible to perform all these miracles?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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Well, the standard way that I deal when someone has bad news is to just say “that sucks”. It is simple and applies to pretty much anything.
Friend: My father is dying of cancer.
Me: Well, I am terribly sorry to hear that. Cancer sucks.
Friend: I just got a huge bill from the IRS that I was not expecting.
Me: Well, doesn't that completely suck.
You get the general idea. It is really simple and people take it as meaning that I genuinely feel bad for them. Even if I really do not they tend to assume that I do. So it is at least as honest as faking prayer when you really think that the person being prayed over is a real asshole.
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So instead of forming prayer circle when tragedy strikes, we should for a 'that sucks' circle? We just stand around saying that really, really really big time sucks that you could die now?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
If people tried to get me to pray I would either not do anything, or I would tell them "I'll pass, thanks."
I don't do prayer. I would say, "I hope things work out" or "I'm sure things will get better". Unless that isn't true. If I really don't like them I might just be like "Yeah that is terrible."
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Whenever I hear bad news about someone, I say "I'm sorry. I will be thinking of you." Which is true. I will be thinking of them, and I am actually sorry.
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
I won't bore you with my reasons for having such great disdain for this idiotic pasttime, but if there is a god, between Haiti and Chile and all the other things going on around the world, I think s/he has more important things to deal with than a bunch of grown men throwing a little ball around.
Well, if it makes you feel better, then I guess that you can make the circle. I don't see how whatever situation will suck either less or more. Even so, the prayer circle is considerably less effective than getting some dude who might die to the hospital. Such is the hypocrisy of the deal.
Personally, I tend to not involve myself in circle jerks.
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There have been moments in which I have thought we might be able to use an atheist kind of gathering place, but this would make it a religion. Even if it were just a place to get together and discuss things. It would turn it into a cult/religion overnight. The city councilman who is underfire now for being atheist chose to not make an oath to the invisible man, I applaud him. I have to hear people talking about prayer and god all day long. It gets annoying, but if I say anything, suddenly I am a terrible person.
I play along enough so that I don't get scrutinized, being an atheist could actually end up costing me my job.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Why is that? I think it would only become religion if we gave into mass delusion.
There is a basic human need to gather and share experiences and consecrate things like birth, the beginning of adulthood, marriage, death, etc.. Unfortunately, religion has pretty much hijacked these events for their own profit. Unitarian churches are a place where atheists are welcome, but there really OK with anything. I think it would be great if atheists could replace religion with support groups, lectures on how deal with life issues, creating positive attitudes.
Maybe. Trying to organize atheists is like trying to herd cats. Our independence is both a blessing and a curse(so to speak).
The problem is there needs to be some kind of ceremony. Just saying "OK you are councilman now" just doesn't seem serious and sacred enough. You got to give religion credit for making things seem very official once god gets involved. We've got to come up with something better if atheism is to ever become mainstream. Just standing around saying "that sucks" just ain't going to cut it when someone is potentially dying.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I'd prefer a moment of a silence. There's nothing inherently religious about that. And if you're not too disgusted by prayer circles, you could join the general area and just be silent. If you don't say "amen" at the end, I guarantee nobody will notice.
On the other hand, when in the presence of atheists, I really really really like the idea of a "that sucks circle." I'd take part in that. It solves the problem of people thinking you don't care, since all most people want is some show of sympathy. Sure, you'd be blasted by Rush Limbaugh and all the other right wing nuts, but they'd be talking shit about you anyway; you're an atheist.
I think we should have that sucks circles here. I'll start one or two in the Freethinking Anonymous forum if Gene doesn't mind my stealing his idea.
Go for it dude. I would be honored by the idea.
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Yea, moments of silence are just as good. You get the same emotional gesture without the opportunity for pompous windbags to get a soap box.
I like the sucks circle as well, great idea!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
OK, if the idea is that great, then here is the deal:
Let me talk with Brian Sapient on the matter and see where we go with this.
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OK, I had my talk with Brian and he is good with the idea. I think that he wants to use one of the blog accounts to promote this. So when he does, we can link to the blog post to promote the idea.
I suppose that we can all link to this thread as well but I would rather not (because of my earlier comment about using the words when I really don't give a shit about some situation). Among us, we all know how worthless the idea of fake sympathy really is. To the outside world though, I suspect that it might be better if it is viewed in the same light as when people make fake assertions of prayer.
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Sam - "Did you hear that Bill just collapsed in the break room?"
Charles - "Oh no! What happened?"
Sam - "I don't know. He's on his way to the hospital now. I'll be praying for him tonight."
Charles - "Um, yeah. Well, he'll be in my thoughts too."
Little did Charles know that because of his atheism and lack of prayer for Bill, God decided Bill wasn't worth the trouble to save, and let him die. Because that's how God rolls.
Now Bill's family can blame atheism for the demonic influence it is!
Bad atheism! BAD, BAD ATHEISM!
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
Robb
"The general opinion is not always the perfect truth..."
- Giordano Bruno
I'm just throwing this in as a crazy idea!
Instead of praying, maybe we should try something actually useful, like helping the injured guy climb stairs or hand them something they're reaching for, or at least send them a "get well soon" card.
"I don't believe in afterlife, although I am bringing a change of underwear."
And if two Christians pray for Bill and he dies anyways, then it was the Lord taking him to a better place. Religion is convenience.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
process of self reassurance by circuitous means, I see no reason why a more direct approach to oneself would not work perfectly well. I think most atheists would practice the self-chat. In many ways having a friend tell you what you want to hear is similar. It's funny. Many people pray when they feel they have no option left and this suggests to me that prayer is a form of denial that allows the believer to feel a greater sense of control in challenging circumstances than they actually have - a process that might reduce panic in terms of evolutionary purpose.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck