Atheist Misconception
Offline Hi. I'd like to point out a misconception that may, or may not, be held by anyone in particular(atheist included.) As an ex-atheist, I thought that the religious world of theism simply did no good, and that it took the coming of the enlightenment for all the good of secularism to be bestowed upon the human race. Well, it turns out that this is simply factually untrue. There are thousands of religious motivations that have changed history, such as helping people that faced genocidal persecuation, feeding starving people, peacekeeping efforts, martin-luther king. There have been religious movements aimed at helping gays. Mohhammed, for all he did in his time, was an innovator in women's rights during his time.
Many women's rights activists were fueled by christian sentiment. Opposition to the vietnam war was based on christian sentiment. Many churches and outreach programs shelter the homeless and teach children, educate in universities, the Jesuits do good work.
I admit, I regret being combative against my Catholic history professor. He was a jesuit, and I went in with the mindset that I was going to challenge his fundamentalist ways from the beginning. But I was thrown because he wasn't fundamentalist at all. He presented a scholarly, secular, and psychological and historical reading of historical documents, as well as scripture, (No, I am not majoring in theology or any of those fields. But it is a long story why I took the class. I failed.)
Anyways, the point is, religion has provided some bad, some good. It's provided a lot of bad, a lot of good. It's provided a fairly even scale.
Now look at science: We have indoor plumbing. We have better creature comforts. Yes. But we also have more drugs abuse, we have more war, more bombs, we have more noise, more fast pace living. Science is pretty much neutral when it comes to benefits and harms. What's more, secularist ideologies have spawned religions of their own: The religions of Fascism and Communism. I'm not saying these are the result of atheism, as atheism is just the lack of belief in god, but keep in mind that secularism is much more than just atheism.
But that's beside the point. What I'm trying to point out is that there is a popular misconception that a lot of atheists have, myself once included. The idea that religion produced nothing but bad news, and then there was this enlightenment, and then nothing but good news, is simply factually untrue. You guys are the atheists, and you guys are the ones that claim to be the "ratioinal responders" right? So, you guys are the ones that claim to love evidence, right? Well, here's one item where the ball is completely in your court. Look it up. Check the facts. It's completely in your power to do so.
No one's stopping you. If you really want to know, if you really, truly want to know, and don't want to just be ignorant, or in denial, check the facts. See if there's been any religiously motivated movemements that inspired positive change. You can check the facts. Heaven knows I have.
Of course, this doesn't mean that the religion's are true. Keep in mind that I don't believe any of these religions, though, so don't worry, it probably won't make you believe the religion's either.
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Crap. double post.
p.s. You know... there was a time, when, if you had asked me, I would have sworn I'd never be making posts such as the one above... go figure.
Indoor plumbing is huge. Think about it. Without it, we all would be swimming in shit to work - especially if you happen to live in a large city. I have no desire to traipse down to the river, haul buckets of water to the house (a long hike), and then heat it over a wood fire to be able to wash clothes, dishes, and people. The internet, computers, telephones, ipods, radios, cars, clothes, agriculture (you may not like it, but you wouldn't be happy trying to grow all of your own food), electricity, heating/cooling your home/apartment, grocery stores, service stations, roads, etc, forever.
People are good. People are bad. It has nothing to do with religion, race, culture, creed or the color of your eyes. In fact, the same person can be bad and good all on the same day. Get over yourself.
You qualify for the sin of pride.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
And that's really all that matters, I would never say theists have done only bad and would assume most rational athiests would agree. Their are alote of good hearted theists, see that wasn't hard. Who cares, they still believe silly things, and thats what my concern is.
I like you cj.
Also, does the existence of creature comforts in any way eradicate the need for peace and quiet or some sort of spiritual life, if you feel you need it?
what is this? A cigarrete? <--
Yeah, I agree. Keep in mind, however, that a mind changed against it's will is not changed at all.
Aw, now it shows. I am in disagreement with myself? Is that your position?
My Website About Roller Coaster Design
I think you are overstating both the actual benefits of religion, and ignoring many benefits of science and technology.
Many of the things you attribute to religion are things that many people would have done anyway, in terms of helping others. Some religions and religious institutions have no doubt encouraged and facilitated some of these charitable urges.
Much of religion has been about helping people cope with the sad state of the world and our 'fallen' nature, rather than actively try to do something to fundamentally change these 'evils', which were seen at least partly as God's punishment for 'original sin' or whatever.
Science and technology have had far more positive effects on human health than religion ever has, from public sewerage handling and treatment, water treatment and distribution, immunization, anaesthetics, antibiotics, improved crop-breeding for food, discovery of the germ-theory of disease allowing far more effective control of infectious diseases. A number of these advances were actively opposed by various religious 'authorities'.
Of course some new discoveries from Science have allowed some very unfortunate developments, such as nuclear weapons, and more effective arms in general, allowing angry armies or individuals to cause far more death and injury than they could with swords and arrows. Thankfully, so far, only two nuclear weapons have been used in anger, both dropped by a strongly Christian nation, funnily enough. The current major worry from such weapons is another extremely religious nation, curiously enough. Is there a pattern developing here?
I find your analysis a little shallow, honestly.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Which does not require religion as such. Those feelings and experiences we often refer to as 'spiritual' are primary feelings which religion has leveraged off and tried to claim as its exclusive territory.
Have you read any of Sam Harris' books? He addresses what you refer to there very directly, often to the extent of making other Atheists uncomfortable, but he makes it extremely clear that he feels religion is not the only or the best way to achieve those aspects of life.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Peace and quiet doesn't necessarily mean spiritual. If I want some peace and quiet, I go to one of the local waterfalls or down to one of the parks near the river. And I don't need to clutter it up with worrying about a spirit or spirituality. Much quieter without any invisible friends hanging around. The grace of the water doesn't need god/s/dess to be soothing and calming.
All those "creature comforts" you allude to are much more than comforts. I am not kidding. You would NOT want to live somewhere without sewer or water systems. I have no desire to live like my ancestresses, splitting firewood, hauling water, and trying to nurse babies through measles, diptheria, whooping cough, polio, scarlet fever, smallpox, typhus, typhoid fever, dysentery, malaria, yellow fever, or cholera without aspirin, let alone antibiotics. For some interesting historical fiction try Patriot Hearts by Barbara Hambly for a description of a yellow fever outbreak in Philadelphia that almost wiped out the town just after the Revolutionary War. Or look into the 1854 cholera epidemic in London and Dr. John Snow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak
We-you and I-would very likely have not made it through childhood without all those "comforts".
Agriculture is as bad. Have you worked as a farm laborer recently? Tried to grow enough of your own tomatoes to can them up for a year of home made pizza and spaghetti sauce? No? Try it sometime and then tell me how modern agriculture is a "comfort".
And I have no idea what that particular icon means.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Personally, I'm inclined to believe that many religious people think that their religion motivates them to do things that they would have done anyway, simply because they were good people. But if that's the case, then eradicating religion from the face of the earth is a waste of time, because it won't stop all the evil in this world, and we'd be better off helping people better themselves.
Well. I'm getting off the internet for now. So I won't be posting for a while. I generally only get on the internet during weekends. But I want to say that I really enjoyed talking with you guys. It was fun. Thank you for the talk.
<--(question: Cigarrete? Or Joint?)
Secularism is the separation of church and state. Mussolini and Stalin effectively turned their states into religions.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I was going to rant but Bob beat me to it.
I never understood the argument. I do nice things for people. Hitler did nice things for people. Stalin did nice things for people. Popes have done nice things for people.
What you need to do is find out what works and what doesn't, and as Bob has pointed out Science and secular thought have done the most for humanity in the shortest time. Many of those scientists were religious, but the tool they used was not religion, it was science. Their religion was usually a passive part. No-one ever cured a disease by being religious. They might have received some motivation from their religion, but people receive motivation from all kinds of things.
You also get more objective and useful morality out of secular thought without all the crap taboos of ancient cultures.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Welcome to the site ZeppelinKapft!
I'll ignore the inanity you wrote about how everyone is capable of doing good or bad. What I'm concerned about is the crazy things you claimed about science.
No it isn't. Do you know what the infant mortality rate and the life expectancy would be without modern medicine? I know that my mother and I would not be alive without modern medicine. And, even if I was alive, I would be a cripple and would be unable to walk normally. But, thanks to modern medicine, I am alive and healthy. When I was two a starving dog attacked me and tore one of my toes off (as well as tear up my foot and one of my legs). You know what they did at the hospital? They put the toe back on. Using microsurgery they reattached it. Just like that. And then they used microsurgery to fix the stuff in my foot that was torn up. Think about that for a while. This should be a profound thing. Thanks to modern science we have reached the point where a doctor thinks "Wow, this kid's foot is pretty messed up and his toe was ripped off. Oh well, let's just put it all back together." I think you are grossly underestimating how good your life is thanks to science. This isn't a matter of comfort. This is actually a matter of life and death.
No one is stopping you from getting information. Read about how families used to have lots and lots of children and read about how they lost a lot of those children due to diseases that have been virtually eradicated today.
Science didn't invent or spread drug abuse. I suppose that crystal meth and PCP couldn't have been make without an understanding of chemistry. But, all the other popular recreational drugs (heroin, cocaine, alcohol, THC, caffeine) have been used for longer than the scientific method has existed.
I saw a TED talk in which the speaker claimed that deaths due to violence and war have been decreasing over time and that we are very un-warlike these days. I'm not certain that guy is correct, but I think that you are much less likely to die in war today than at almost any other time in history.
Really? The pettiest and most minor annoyances you can think of are balancing out modern medicine? I don't believe that, and I doubt that you do either. And I'm not even mentioning all of the other wonders that science has brought us. Modern medicine alone has profoundly changed life for the better. And not in a 'I'm more comfortable" kind of way.
I don't mean to be some dick on the internet, but you are so profoundly wrong on this matter.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
Oh come on...what's a little polio or holy war when you don't have to listen to your stupid neighbor blast his subwoofer at 2AM?
Get some perspective Jormungander!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I drop change in the salvation army bucket. They do help people, from what I understand more of their money actually gets to people in need than most of the other charitable institutions. They did the most good here back in 79' when we had a huge tornado, so I do give them my change.
This does not mean I would donate money if I thought it was going to build say, a new multi million dollar church or some other house of lies and fantasy place. If I want fantasy I'll go to disney land.
Just because they do "some good things" does not make it right by the way. A serial killer may have helped an old lady across the street, or fed his neighbors dog while they were on vacation, but he is still a serial killer at the end of the day.
To compare science and religion is silly, they have little to nothing in common. Science is based on rational logical thinking (and also involves trial and error lol I made a funny) and religion is based on faith and fantasy.
Again, all these ex atheists, you were not an atheist if you are now religious, you may have been a skeptic but not an atheist.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
more war..... etc etc.... what an utterly fatuous statement ..
MOST wars dating back to recorded history have been as a direct result of Religion
http://www.warscholar.com/Timeline.html