I am a Christian, and I need you to poke holes in my argument.
Offline Hello! I am a Christian participating in a friendly debate with a group of atheists. If anyone would be so kind, I would like to find out more about what atheists believe and how they think. If you would poke holes in my argument by giving your best rebuttal, it would help me out a lot. My only purpose in asking this is simply to learn and expand my mind; Whatever you say will stay here on this forum. I invite you to give me your best shot, but please keep it to rational and logical arguments. Thanks for your time!
Question 1: What is the origin of morals?
Morality is simply a description of reality: It is saying that the universe should look a certain way. Whatever is moral keeps that order in the universe. For example, it is morally right to love your neighbor. If everyone loved their neighbor, then we’d have no wars and everyone could live in peace. But if everyone did the opposite, then no one could live within society; we would all kill each other. Everyone’s moral system is designed to keep the order of the universe. But in order to say what is ordered, you’d have to also say that you know what the best order of the universe should be. No human can say how the universe should be ordered because we did not design it nor order it in the first place. We are only working within our own perspective; therefore we can only say how we can make the universe work for us. But then, you have everyone saying different things trying to make the universe work for them. So whose moral system is the best? No one can say. The only person who can legitimately say that the universe should look any certain way is the person who gave it order. The only person who can say what a piece of art should look like is the artist.
Now, if you say that the best moral system is the one where we are all in agreement, I would ask the question, are we really any closer to reaching full societal agreement? What you ask for in this society of harmony is a utopia. We would like to believe that we are closer now than we were before because of our global society, but there will always be dissenters. I think that points to show that there is something unnatural about the way that human beings are living.
Question 2: What is the purpose of life?
I would have to state first that there is a purpose to life. Everything which is designed and created by will has a purpose. There are things which are made that have no purpose in and of themselves, and they are called accidents. The only way an accident can have a purpose is if its creator is smart enough to make it work somehow, or if the accident creates a purpose for itself. If indeed we are accidents, then we could create for ourselves any purpose we wanted. But if something is not an accident, but created intentionally, then its best purpose is whatever it was designed for. If someone else comes along and tries to change the function, chances are, it’s not going to be living up to its full potential. A computer can function very well as a paperweight or a door stop, but that’s not what it’s best for. In the same way, if we humans are created beings, then when we try to create a purpose for ourselves apart from what our creator made us for, then we are going to fall short. I don’t think we could make a better purpose because we’re not smarter than the all-knowing God. So in order to find our purpose, we have to go back to our creator. And that, I believe, is the purpose of life: To go to our creator and have that relationship with him, and then he will guide us to finding what we were meant to be.
Question 3: Is there such a thing as absolute truth?
I think it would be an absurd statement to say that there is no absolute truth at all. If not, then why are any of us here debating? I think atheists do believe in absolute truth, you just define it differently. You might define absolute truth as something which can be observed and proven through science, and anything outside of that is only subjective. I would find that a lot easier to agree with, except that there are truths which are absolutely true, but not scientific and can only be known through experience. Two examples are logic and reason. They are self-evident truths in that you cannot prove them outside of themselves. Science is based upon them. Yet you cannot deny that they are not true, because to do so, you would have to use them. Even to say that they aren’t true is false because you are claiming to make a true statement. Logic and reason are the only truths which use themselves as referents. There are absolutes based upon them, like the order of numbers. We don’t make judgments about them; we make judgments based on them.
Question 4: Is the Universe ordered?
I think it’s a rather simple thing to demonstrate order in the universe, but it’s much harder to explain the implications. It’s very difficult to perceive order on a grand scale because our perception is constantly changing. A few years ago, the order of the universe was that there were 9 planets, but now there are 8 apparently. And then there are matters of pure opinion, like taste, style of music, etc. With so many things that can change, and with so many different viewpoints out there, the universe may seem very chaotic. But I believe there is an underlying order in all things, which can be demonstrated in the order of numbers. 7 plus 3 equal 10, and not just today, but it’s always equaled ten and always will. And this is not just a matter of opinion, either. Anyone who thinks is capable of grasping this concept, and the concept is the same for everyone. But this also shows order: Ten is equal to seven and three, but is greater than seven and greater than three, and seven is also greater than three. This is the order and it does not change. There are relationships in numbers, and I think that the whole universe shows that it was built upon relationships. The moon revolves around the earth, the earth around the sun, and the sun around the galaxy. But it’s not just with things; I believe it’s with people, too, since we are within the universe. Human beings are just as relational as everything else. Parents are over their children, friends and friends are side-by-side, husbands and wives are joined together, and I believe all of us are under God. I think that human beings were built to have relationships just like everything else, because we’re not alone in the universe and it’s not natural for anyone to be alone. But when relationships are disrupted, the universe goes from order to chaos. If the earth were to lose its orbit around the sun, the moon’s orbit would be affected as well. People suffer because of broken families and broken marriages. I think that ultimately all chaos comes from the broken relationship with God, because he made relationships in the first place. And I believe that Christ came for that very reason, to re-establish that relationship between God and man. When that relationship is fully and finally restored, I think there will be the right order in the universe.
Question 5: Why are you a Christian?
To be honest, none of my reasoning, studying, or searching had anything to do with it. All of those things came after the fact; I wasn’t searching for God when I found him. The only reason why I follow Christ is because he personally intervened in my life. If he hadn’t, I don’t think I would have any reason to believe. Now of course, experience isn’t the test of truth, because people have false experiences all the time. So along the way I’ve questioned and examined it all, critically and even doubting sometimes. But thankfully the more I learn, the more it only confirms what God has been doing in my life all along, even against my own expectations. I like how C.S. Lewis put it, “I know that God is not a figment of my imagination because he’s not at all what I would imagine him to be.”
Question 6: What if you're wrong?
Well, to be honest, if I’m wrong then I hope someone shows me what’s right. If someone thinks I’m wrong, I’ll listen to them and consider their argument as long as they’re reasonable about it. I’m not afraid of being challenged about my beliefs; I ask for it. And if I’m wrong about Christianity, then I guess I’d have to start figuring out a better purpose to life. But even if I do find out that Christianity is wrong, that Jesus was not the Son of God, then I think I would probably still follow His example anyway. I would still obey his teaching as if he were God incarnate. The only way I wouldn’t follow Jesus is if someone showed me that he wasn’t perfect. See, we (Christians) don’t claim that we know everything, and we certainly don’t claim that we’re perfect. We’re just as messed up as anyone else. Christianity isn’t about Christians, it’s about Christ. We don’t claim that we’re perfect, we proclaim that He is. So showing me everything that’s wrong about Christians won’t change anything; to really prove me wrong you’d have to show me what’s wrong about Jesus.
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If the color of the hair on my balls is any indication then yes.
The hells with the rest of yous! I'm still 26 dammit!
awwww mannnnn,,,,,,,,,,,,,
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I would most certainly not like to agree to that.
My position is, "I don't know, but there are some possible theories. It might not be possible to know! If someone can ever prove something either way, I'll jump on board!"
Your position is, "It's magic, because ancient goat herders told me so, and they happened to be a tribe violent enough to slaughter their way into the modern era. And the fact that I was raised in a culture that accepts this at face value means it is true, because the Bible says so and I say so and my preacher says so. Indeed, I know the ultimate secrets of the universe! And I also believe snakes can talk, but only when they are actually demons."
To me, there is a *slight* difference between those viewpoints, and I would rather they were not grouped together.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Heat death
But then, sudden antimatter induction could keep it warm for a LOT longer
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Heat death caused the universe? What?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Who claimed this? Is there some atheist going around convincing all the theists that this is what we think? Misusing the word 'random' when describing how atheists view things and presenting the straw man that atheists believe that the universe came from nothing are theists' two favorite ways to misrepresent the views of atheists.
But we don't believe thate silly straw man misrepresentation of our views. So: no. You have a faith position. I'm not so sure that anyone else here does.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
OK, I was out of town for a few days, so I seem to have missed this thread. Whatever.
Well bully for you.
OK, that is your first fail. Everything that comes after is automatically a problem. Let me explain:
We are atheists. We don't actually believe in anything. Well, sort of. It is a fact that I cannot speak for anyone else in atheism. We don't have a doctrine that we are all required to follow. There are a few people on this forum that are creeped out over the fact that I am a conservative republican. In some people's minds, conservative republican equals automatic belief in fundamentalist christianity.
No, actually, politics and religion are different subjects. If drilling for oil in ANWR means that gas gets cheaper, then I am all for that. If Exxon can make a gazillion dollars on the deal, well, that helps the economy.
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Well, morals are stuff that makes sense. Try not to be a serial killer and you are good to go. Why do you want to know what the origin of stuff that makes sense is?
Hookers and beer? I don't really care if that does not work for you. Last night was St Pat's and I wore my kilt to an Irish bar. I had random lesbians buying me shots.
Probably. It may not be what you had in mind though. I am fairly certain that 22/7 is close enough to pi for the purpose of making stuff.
Probably. Among other things, I am an amateur astronomer. That is about as close to the universe as I can get. The fact that there are stars and galaxies suggests that there is some order to shit.
Is the universe ordered on every possible scale? Can't possibly be. How would you account for the random shit?
I am not.
Then it sucks to be me. What if you are wrong?
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SPEAKING of morals! Lol!
Sorry, you have a faith position, there's no shame in that. lol. Everyone believes something, even if you believe in "nothing".
Hey, at least that is way better than Moses. After the israelites had already slaughtered almost all the midianites, he ordered all the captives killed, except for the virgin girls. They kept those for themselves. Sexual slavery is such a nice thing.
Many critters feel pain. It is a survival trait. Those that feel pain, avoid pain, and avoid getting hurt. And so they live longer and have more offspring. So those are the ones that reproduce. No order required, just evolution.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Have you ever made rock candy? Heat the sugar and water - add color and flavor if you wish. Put it in a glass, suspend a string in the glass so it touches the heated sugar and water. Go away until it cools. Tah-dah! Crystals of rock candy form - order out of chaos courtesy of the second law of thermodynamics.
We have order all around us. Giant oaks from little acorns. Adult humans from the combination of two gametes. Scrambled eggs when heat is added. We recognize order because order is everywhere - there is that 2LOT again!
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Do you know Cal Worthington and his dog Spot?
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Saying a thing is so don't make it so, son.
As Mr. Montoya would say, "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means!"
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
It's interesting that that the theists think that the most devastating insult they can come up with is "you're just like us".
Keep trying lad.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Imagination.
Que?
Morals are essentially behaviouristic speculation with a history of positive reinforcement. They don't describe reality they are a projection of a possible reality, one appealing to the human sensibility, mostly.
Well then you'd just be begging the question, wouldn't you?
Extreme question begging alert!
Designed? created by will?
ORLY???
Indeed. The most one can rationally say in counter to 'absolute truth' is that they are in doubt of there being absolute truth to speak of.
It is apparent in the results of methodical investigation of the empirical world that we are not going to uncover any absoluteness of things in this universe. Such as it is, that says a lot.
Errr, that's not the universe, it's the solar system. There are a lot more (many billions) planets in the universe.
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
www.mathematicianspictures.com
Right. Just keep saying that over and over. Maybe the mean atheists will go away.
In all observed instances of conscious beings, the consciousness is the result of complex, natural, biological, unintelligent processes. A supernatural, immaterial intelligent being would be counter-inductive, introduces more questions than it answers, and there is absolutely no evidence for it.
Furthermore, assuming you believe in a God that is good by human standards and is very powerful, the cold reality of the universe is evidence that such a God does not exist.
I don't believe that "nothing" created the universe. I don't know what created the universe. 'I don't know' is NOT a belief. It is a lack of belief.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Personally, I think that Jesus can not be the Messiah since he did not match up to the OT prophecies of the Messiah. If you would read the OT prophecies, you will notice a common theme - one coming, not two. Even Jesus knew this and tried to fulfill these prophecies and blamed it on the Jew's lack of faith when he wasn't able to.
It confuses me that Christians say that Jesus was perfect. Isn't it considered a sin to doubt God? Jesus said, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Is this not a sin because Jesus did it?
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
I was always confused by that statement. I can't imagine a situation where an omniscient deity would say something like that....especially one that is a third of the Christian trinity. "Myself, Myself, why have I forsaken Me!"
It makes a lot more sense as the words of a mystic who just realized the angels in his head weren't going to pull his ass out of the fire.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Hello, Ill do my best
Morals are just things that we think are right. Nessisary for us humans to function socially. You don't need to be told by a God that killing a child is wrong to know it is, its just common sense.
Purpose is an illusion created by us. We don't really have a purpose. Sorry to burst your bubble but we are not really destined for something great. We may do great things, but because we choose to.
No there is no absolute truth. Thats a fabrication of the imagination. Yes we maybe able to gain large amounts of knowledge, but who's to say we are not just living in a matrix?
If God created the universe, he is a very crappy designer. God, "Um ill put a few million stars in a clump here randomly, then we have some expanse of space over here, oh and how about a black hole here". Nope it seems the Universe is completely random.
That is an illogical statement, how do you know what he is like if you haven't imagined him to be like that and you have not really seen him?
If I'm wrong then when I see the creator I'll explain to him why he cannot exist.
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You cannot disprove the existance of God, but you also cannot disprove the existance of an all powerfull, incomprehesible, pink elephant that lives in the boot of my car.