What rap sounded like, before tha pop music business bought MOST of it out... (no longer safe for work o.O)
Posted on: March 22, 2010 - 3:56pm
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What rap sounded like, before tha pop music business bought MOST of it out... (no longer safe for work o.O)
In the days when men were men, and the women carried a 9mil at ALL times to keep punkass muthafuckas at bay...
(or rather, I should say before dat dead-stupid punk bitch 2pac fuct the music industry up permanently)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
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Cypress hill - insane in the brain - 1993
Uploaded by tetrax35. - Music videos, artist interviews, concerts and more.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Kapkao.... I'm a rap buff and historian. Everything here other than rappers delight was owned by "pop" if you want to call it that. Rap got ruined by the South. Master P was the beginning Slim Thugga is todays Master P. If you want more artists that represent raps roots I'd look for Kurtis Blow or Kool Moe Dee. Maybe some Rob Base, Will Smith, Salt n Pepa, etc...
Oh yeah... Lil Wayne is from the south and he sucks massive horse dong.
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While I like some of the old-school rap (pretty damned fond of Kool Moe Dee, as Brian mentioned), I kinda like some of the rap-influenced pop, or pop-influenced rap. "Blakroc" is one of my favorite recent acquisitions. Of course, that's probably because it's The Black Keys with a bunch of rap, hip-hop, and soul artists.
I do loves me some Black Keys.
Anyway, just because it's influenced by pop doesn't make it bad by default. (But then, I like quite a bit of pop, too.)
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Lil wayne is one of the worst lyricists in the industry, topped only by Soldja Boy and other the like. These guys right lyrics like children.
"-You look nicey
-I'm a make you my wifey
-girl your so pretty
-I'll take you round the city."
And so on (PPPuke) wankas.
i have no interest in the genre myself but i just feel like adding that 50 cent gave a concert here in kosice a couple weeks ago which was almost universally panned by rap fans and detractors alike. apparently it was nothing but undiscernable noise. i was reminded of steve harvey's rant about rap versus old school r&b: to paraphrase, "there were four temptations, one mic! at a hip-hop concert, every muthafucka on stage got a mic!"
oh, and i know many people say this, but the sampling these days in both rap and pop goes way too far. you want to be taken seriously as a musician? write your own fucking melody.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
... I didn't think you and I were even capable of seeing eye-to-eye.
Fuckin' A
(now I see if I can finish typing out my response to Sapient before the sky starts getting dark!
)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
... surprise me at every turn, Sensei.
Alright, but the only thing from Will Smith that I'm going to ever listen to will be his pre-Bad Boys stuff. I'm NOT going to (re)listen to Salt n Pepa... I've never even heard of Rob Base. Kurtis Blow, Kool Moe Dee... these names ring a bell, but I can't say much about them.
My pov comes from a generalized attitude (and perception) that everything (artistic-wise) that corporate Mtv touches... goes to hell in a handbasket faster than you can say "mommy!".
Urbandictionary sums up best of what I think of MTv
Some preface info about me may be in order...
The time span being delt with here (1978-1994), I was either not even cognizant, barely able to walk, or way too overprotected by Caucasian, middle classed parents. Even my school districts couldn't get it right: the number of 'darker-skinned' students in my school at any one time could be counted on one or two hands. Bah! Anyways... the closest thing I had to "bad ass" music during this time period was either Pink Floyd or Queen. Couldn't convince 'Mom' to let me listen to hard shit (Metal, Industrial, Acid House, Outlaw Country music, and of course, Rap) at all, even if it meant straight-As on my RC. My Dad simply gave me blank stares and whimpering remarks on the general order of "You don't need to be listening to that craziness. It'll make ya mean!" and "OMG He's turning into a bad apple! <insert poor pitiful Dad routine here>". On the plus side, I did manage to con Dad and Stepmom into letting me stay home by myself once the schoolbus dropped me off at the ripe old age of 9. Alas... neither here nor there.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Your right Nigel; it doesn't. I'm still convinced most musicians do their best work before becoming popular/mainstream, not afterwards... (look at Metallica if you don't believe me)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I'd definitely agree. I'll take U2's War over anything they've done since The Joshua Tree. And I agree -- Metallica has sucked for years.
The only thing I hate is when something becomes self-consciously pop. Though I've never been a big fan of country music, is sucks worse today than it did 30 years ago, and the problem is that it's trying to be pop, with slide guitar.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Black Eyed Peas! Rhyming "My humps" with "My humps" != songwriting material
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I think the issue is many bands get signed with the best material they have, but that is sort of their money shot. Not many bands have more than an album or two that is really 'them'...then most either just start repeating themselves or they start putting out junk.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
(wtfhax... this turned into an economics lesson on the music industry? whatever...)
I believe the real problem isn't the 1-hit wonders, but the fact that record companies decide what is published and what isn't. Most of these companies are only interested in the bottom line (and not the reason these artists became successful to begin with)... and that means more profit motive, more bubble gum music, and less good-listening.
Hell... not even Mark Wahlberg wanted to join his cousin's (or was it his brother's?) band "New Kid on the Block" when he was 13, because it sounded too "bubble gum"... so he did the usual hell-raising, troubled youth routine throughout his teenaged years, and then started modeling for Calvin Klein at 19... and performed as "Marky Mark" (pronounced with a Bostonian accent... heh) when he was 21.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
THANK YOU!!! You know the average pop/hip hop listener doesn't give a fuck if the artist had anything to do with writing the song, or if the beat was stolen. I feel like I'm one of the only (scratch) beatmakers left, meaning I right my beats from scratch using INSTRUMENTS in my studio at home. I'm so fucking tired of samples with a beat bvehind them, I could put that togther in 1 min flat. But to right the entire cord structure, bridge, and all the sounds and beat variations take time, that's waht's rewarding for me, fuck a sample.
Will-i-am is actually quite tallented can't knock his musical ability and composition skills however mainstreet blackeyed peas songs are mostly rediculous. Fergie is lyrically retarded, the guys used to be alote more abstract and creative. My humps was one of the worst songs ever written, yet it sold millions of single copies I'm sure. Sometimes I feel like I should stop writing good music and make some dumb songs about chicks I hit on at bars which chorus' are just a catchy word repeated over and over again like "Sexified" and make some real money. Yup, I could pump a song out like that every day. Some kinda Danny Fernandes/Soulja Boy/Messari/Sean Desman colabo awkward shit for idiots.
Verse would go something like:
Girl I saw you
Inside the club
you were so
beu-ti-fow,
I looked at you
you looked at me
I will go wherever
You-will-go,
I bought you lots
of expensive drinks
cause that just
how-I-rowl
I drive you round
I my new car
baby we'll just
loose-con-trowl
Chorus:
Cuz your so sexi sexi sexified, sexified, sexified. Cuz your so sexi sexi sexified, so sexified, so sexified ohh.....
Apparently we've got a hit. PPPuke! Who buys this shit?
I grew up hearing stuff like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDj54ZdJw_w
But I turned to megadeth, metallica, anthrax etc by the time I got to high school.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
There's some kinda fluid dripping from my ears after listening to that... it looks crimson and has a metallic taste to it.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
As far as country goes, this is the best by far.
Same people who buy phish's, Britney's, Christina's, Avril Lavigne's, Mariah Carey's, Hanson's, and Backstreet Boy's latest albums whenever they make it to MTv's music vid shows*...
MTv= most prolific serial killer of good music
*I'm not going to include Eminem in this group, because he isn't TRULY part of the problem here -despite dealing a below-the-belt punch to Will & Jada Smith, his life story mirrors mine all in so many ways it's surreal, and YOU HAVE to respect the level of PURE restraint he demonstrated after BEING POUNCED ON BY BRUNO!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
WHAT THE...
cant evenn think straight now!
"MY BONER MY BONER MY BONER" almsot gav me a haert attack!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Maybe you will like this one Kapkao. It makes me laugh anyway.
It was pretty good, mang...
"Would the real Slim Shady please give up"... if you like PIC humor/parody, or if you just hate blonde punks talking shit about damn near everything, it's about a 7 or an 8.0 on the satire scale (and a little dated on it's subject matter, so try to be fair about it) This one made me cackle to no end a little over 10 years ago... when my friends were all listening to "The Real Slim Shady".
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Wow. Multilevel Fail.
"No comment"
Well if we're gonna go with the best T-Pain song ever... I'm on a boat mother fucker don't you ever forget...
Vote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!
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“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
You mean, back when MTV actually played music videos. Now it's just reality show bullshit. But way back when, the Dead Kennedys had the right idea:
I chose this video because you can actually read the lyrics.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Thank you so much for that... fucking hilarious! "She didn't even swear" (vocoded) <-- Made my day!
On a more serious note, I think Jay-Z is damn good at what he does:
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Vaulting, Jay-Z is the fucking man but that song is not one of his better ones. The entire Linkin Park Jay-Z mash up album is great, but this is probably one of my favorites from him... (aside from hard knock life, can't knock the hustle, sunshine, and empire state of mind):
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I will admit I've heard little other than the Jay-z/Linkin Park album, but I do love it. 99 problems was on the radio yesterday, so it was freshest in memory. (and probably one of his most recognizable)
thanks for the song, Jay-z plus the Roots? Hell Yeah!
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My tolerance for modern R&B music: 0
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I'm not much on misogynistic lyrics... so I'll go with:
(What can I say... I've always had a thing for 'mean girls'
)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Forgot about this one...
Well to be fair, I haven't watched MTv much at all since Puffy/P. Diddy/Puff Daddy talked about why sampling supposedly wasn't such a bad thing and how Manson scared him with all his 'fuck you, God' attitude towards religion and Christianity. This would've been in 1998, easily.
My first thought was "Yeah... I better quit while I'm still ahead."
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
My favorite rap song came out in 1975.
I quit watching mtv when they quit showing headbangers ball.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Yeah... the basic cable music channels took a turn for the worse by the 90s. It's a crying shame... they went from "Homero's Odyssey" to "bread and circus shows" in the span of about 10 years.
On the plus side, the Real World did have some nice looking gals in it....... some of which were abusive, loudmouthed, and particularly egocentric. Right up my ally, y'know?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
man, back when i was dope muthafuckin' banger on the high school academic team, me'n m'boyz used to groove on this shit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRL9NLQqP8
(the fuckers who uploaded it won't allow it to be embedded.)
seriously, if i ever started dropping acid this would be the first thing i would watch. there's no iller rhyme than the one about the man from mars eating cars then eating bars then eating guitars. holyyyyy shit...
incidentally, i once heard this was the very first rap music video. i think i read it on "pop-up video." anybody remember pop-up video? they also explained that all the random weird people are supposed to represent various voodoo deities.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Dumbest line in a rap song today, and a demonstration in how the south ruined rap....
Song: Bedrock
artist: young money featuring lloyd
I putta hugga
I see me with her
No stevie wonder
She wont ever wonder
Cause she knows she bad
And I gotta
Grocery bag
You gotta grocery bag? Good for fucking you, loser.
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being a musician and music buff myself, (especially for rap) i have to agree with Sapient...Master p did start the downfall of rap. southern rap in particular. unlike Brian, i disagree with the blanket statement of all southern rap. i mean, UGK...Goodie Mobb...Eightball & MJG...not really the pop aspects of the southern rap, and i don't really lump any of those dudes into MY category of cocknoses that did contribute to the downfall of rap in general. Master P? absolutely. that fucker killed rap. he then paved the way for all the Cash Money Records fakes to come in a piss all over the grave of rap. everyone since then has just helped to throw more dirt on the coffin. including that punk ass Eminem. Jay-Z is still one of the stand-out artists in my opinion. aside from that.......these guys were the shit. fuck Marcy, it's all about the Queensbridge!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvCp-N-9JEw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP0wsET8__Y
Both of these have turned up in my head off and on over the years.
I'll give you goodie mob, but you gotta respect Eminem. He added to rap, certainly hasn't taken from it.
Sadly this thread is nothing without paying homage to Biggy and Tupac. Those guys were both amazing.
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wasn't kapkao's original point that tupac ruined rap?
like i said, i've never been a fan, but even i had a lot of respect for "just the way it is," perhaps the only time i thought sampling really worked.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Indeed it was. I like California knows how to party... that's about it. The rest is too mellow for me. I go straight for fierce 'aggro' music, none of this 'tragic' shit.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I don't remember if that was his point. But if it was, it was wrong.
I liked Tupac "changes" and have even had a tear run down my face at least once while listening. Another great sample...
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three things...
1. just realized that was you point... you're wrong. :P
2. also just realized iwbiek called "changes" "just the way it is"
3. yes it's mellow, but now that I know you like fierce I can make recommendations...
Check out DMX but even better yet check this...
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yeah, yeah, i did.
remember my qualifier: i'm not a fan of the genre.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Anybody that claims 2pac as the start of rap's downfall should now and forever be disqualifed from further discussion of the topic. Brian's dead on Master P's No limit , cash money and all the rest ruined it. Here's a few more fine samples of pre bullshit era.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.