Should I debate Christians?
Offline As my name suggests, I use to consider myself to be a Christian but realized through studying the Bible and trying to follow it that God doesn't exist. For the last 15 years, I have debated Christians in an attempt to plant the "seed of doubt" because I would love to see Christianity go away altogether.
I am wondering if I am being counterproductive in regard to my goal. Most people that believe in Jesus and Christianity aren't biblically devout. Instead, they seem to hardly ever think about God. I don't know if I am causing them to think about God when I go to different websites and debate theists. I realize that the theists that want to debate an atheist will think about God whether I debate them or not. However, there are people that will follow our debates with little to no input. These are the kind of people that might not think much about God if I wasn't debating a theist.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
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depends on the christian. actually, scratch that, it always depends on the person period, regardless of if they're christian or not. you'll sometimes meet lovely people who will actually recognize when they've been beaten on a certain point and concede graciously. the problem with arguing those people is that it's ultimately unsatisfying because it quickly disintegrates into a good-natured "agree to disagree" situation and the conversation is essentially over.
then, at the other extreme, you get those who doggedly argue the same points over and over, respond to arguments they feel they have a good stock answer for, and often flat-out ignore the others. with these, it's best to throw up your hands and let them go. yes, they'll usually call it a victory then, which can sting the pride (even though it's total bullshit; the only thing they succeeded in doing was frustrating you until you had to quit for the sake of your health), but these are generally petty people so think of it as charity to let them have their moment. the best strategy for those folks is to insist on one-on-one where they can't ignore arguments so easily. even then, it might be a good idea to invest in some antacids.
of course, the ideal is to find someone between these two extremes: gracious, intelligent, logical, but at the same time tenacious and firmly convinced, BUT with the possibility of being convinced otherwise. if you're specifically interested in arguing the existence/nonexistence of god, you will almost never find this last characteristic in anyone.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
It's been my experience that many chirtians already have the "seed of doubt"... but it is trumped by "fear of What if?"...like a Mom whose kid is doing drugs...it's easier to slip into denial rather than confront what they already know...
So my suggestion is to Pick your spots, utilize your better judgment...and change your tactics according to the level of douche bag you're dealing with...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
You are not going to see christianity go away. It's going to take another hundred or so more years of stupid $hit. It's actually pointless to argue with a serious christian, because they have a wall of faith that only they can break. It's like walking through a badly made maze you can't win.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
I'm not sure Christianity will over go away there will always be some that adhere to the fantasy.
Arguing with a serious Christian is completely pointless as they are looking at the world through a welding helmut with blinders. They perceive everything filtered through their faith and nothing at all will penetrate it. It's like a firewall that blocks any and all arguments and evidence that conflicts or counters their belief. All that happens is you get a headache from trying to get through to them.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
If confronted, I will argue. On this forum, I occasionally respond to theists if they happen to push one of my buttons. But I don't go out to the christian websites and argue, I don't have the time or need to proselytize. I do view that as proselytizing - and I don't like it when people come up to me and proselytize, so I don't do it to others.
That said, I have three things that usually shut them up if they get in my face:
1. Proselytizing is pride-full arrogance. What gives anyone the idea I have never studied religion? How do they know, what do they think they can tell me I haven't heard before, and what makes them think their solution for their life is a solution for mine?
2. All religion is "us vs them". We are different because we - don't eat meat, don't eat pigs, don't eat cows, don't make sacrifices, don't drink wine, don't screw around, don't gamble, don't, don't, don't. Religion is just a way of making you feel self-important and better than every one else. "God/s/dess loves ME best!" See 1, above.
3. I have a brain, curiosity and tons of physical evidence. If god/s/dess wants to condemn me for using my brain, so be it. Which way is hell?
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Most christians rarely delve into the heart of things. They just focus on the luuuurve they have for jesus. Most things we talk about here are never considered by god people. They usually ignore all the evidence of science and reach for their favorite gap.
Soul, morality, abiogenesis, first cause, the laws of the universe that allow apparent organisation of particles/atoms. Just pick one.
Personally, I always argue, hotly. Even if the god people don't appreciate this, it makes me feel better. Even if religion can't be destroyed, it should be pursued to the ends of the earth.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
You say that you are fighting Christianity, not that that it is bad. BUT you solely focus in this post on Christianity. The problem is with our species is that we always have postulated absurdities. Lets say for example Christianity fades away, which in reality, if our species doesn't commit suicide, will morph into something else.
But the same has happened with all religion and culture, it always gives way to newer ideas.
So in your rightful want of humanity discarding Christianity, there still are absurdities outside that label. I think it is far more important, not to force religion out of existence, but to lead people away from it.
Defeating Christianity only means you defeated Christianity. You do realize there are millions of people today who believe in a religion started in the 1970s by a science fiction writer in L. Ron Hubbard?
Reason cannot be forced on those with absurd claims, but can only be challenged. The only label life has and that the universe will have is simple, "finite". Arguing labels is merely regional and emotional. Seeking answers that we can all find is much harder.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I haven't formally debated a Christian in nearly two years, and I honestly have no desire to do so. Sure, I've had a couple of Socratic conversations with believers here and there, but only when they were trying to tell me about Jesus. I figure it's impolite to completely ignore their attempt, so I just ask a couple of questions they can't answer, let them fumble for a minute, and say "Gee... doesn't make any sense to me. Sorry."
Is it ever effective to "debate" Christians? I dunno. I've never heard of anyone becoming an atheist after doing poorly in a debate. And from what I've seen of the audiences at debates, it's usually not people on the fence. It's people who have already made up their minds and are there to root for their own team. Are there people who've watched debates on Youtube in the privacy of their home, and been spurred to question their faith? Probably, but I have no idea if it's 1% or 20% of the people who watch them.
I'm going to be attending the American Atheists Conference next weekend, and one of my goals is to talk to some of the movers and shakers about this very question. I've been doing a lot of thinking recently about how best to reduce the influence of theism on a cultural, individual, and governmental level. I'm beginning to suspect that debate is one of the least effective methods for several reasons.
1) Debate strengthens resolve. It's conflict, and humans have the emotional tendency to play to win. I suspect this essentially negates any openness or willingness to learn. How many Eagles fans do you know of that have spontaneously developed a willingness to consider rooting for the Giants when there's 2 minutes left and Eli's bringing em down the field?
2) Debate deepens the us/them divisions. It frames atheists and theists as enemies. While it's true that atheism and theism are "philosophical enemies" it's not usually a good idea to try to win the hearts and minds of large groups of people by being their enemy.
3) Debate is often about emotion, not content. I've seen it happen many times: The atheist presents a rock solid argument, but does it with all the grace and eloquence of a three legged llama with a lisp. The theist is charming, personable, and wins the day with Pascal's Wager.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
You are right. Personally, I don't like any religion. My focus is mostly on Christianity because I am an atheist living in the Bible Belt and I know more about the Bible than almost every Christian I talk to. I will tell people that I am not going to say what they want to hear about the Bible and they still want to talk about it. Anyways, I'm surrounded with Christianity but I actually dislike Islam more. Mostly because of that Jihad stuff.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
It also makes me feel better to argue with theists. I enjoy using their Bible against them since that is the supposed basis for their beliefs. I point out contradictions that they can't explain away and things that are absurd if they would just take a minute to think about them.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
I am interested in hearing what responses you receive at the conference.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
With regard to online debating....
Any theist that is willing to actually debate their religion with skeptics online is probably not looking to reflect on their beliefs. Even if the theist gets creamed, (which they often do on this site) they'll probably just scurry away, thinking, "Oh man, those atheists are really radical, really rebellious. They talk so much about complex, confusing, sciency stuff, that they actually think *insert religion here* is wrong." Then, they'll just talk to the invisible fairy for a couple of minutes and read a few select verses from their scripture. And voila! Faith points fully recharged.
I think the person that would gain the most from such debates would be some lurker who is open-minded and somewhat undecided about many issues, and that's the person I want to influence. So, a lot of times, I'll remind myself that I'm partly writing for 'that guy.'
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
The types of responses that such a 'debate' would garner, that I'm aware of, are along the lines of:
God hates you!
(preaching)Jesus loves all atheists (iow, God loves all, God is forgiving)
(intolerant)Go bother someone else!
(dismissive)Pfffftttt you're just part of some (insert name of secular, atheist-friendly political group here)
(pacifistic) All that's asked of me is to stop the aggression
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I debated with a friend last night. It seems I was taking everything out of context, and MY idea's are "silly". He also wants to point out "that's what you believe" desperate to prove I have some sort of faith and belief system. He truly thinks I am the deluded one. He beleives strongly in the power of prayer. He admits that he needs god to hold his hand and help him through life. I tried to argue and tell him HE is the one doing it, not an imaginary friend, he disagrees, and even claims god is helping me as well, to get through life. I almost posted this in that fonzie thread because these guys are like 2 peas in a faith pod.
I showed him the book of Enoch, when it says the angels lusted after the women, then defiled them he said I was giving it the worst possible meaning. Yea rape pretty much, wouldn't that be what it was? Lust then defile? So he looks up defile in the dictionary and somehow comes up with "sex out of wedlock" dur. He didn't even want to talk about the giants.
The bible is a completely useless tool when debating a christian of this nature. Anything I say about or quote from the bible I have taken out of context, or I have not interpreted it correctly. Even when I mention "the word of god is perfect". You have to work in the small cubicle of the common things they "know".
In fact the only time I stumped him was on the subject of "being born into sin". He had no good answer, I even got him to say his god "assumes" but then he changes his mind and said god knows later. He also believes god already knows everything, but we still have to be tested..despite him already knowing the outcome.
He still thinks I need to open my heart to jesus. I tell him jesus does not exist and he says "that's what YOU BELIEVE." I tell him thats what I know and he just rants about belief.
This is why you should not bother debating with people of this nature unless it is for the entertainment value of playing racquetball on the wall of faith.
I suppose it would be possible to make someone think, if they were rational and already open to the concept of no god. However if they are already open to it and rational they are probably already on their way and it may be best to let them figure it out themselves. I know if I had had people talking me into atheism I would possibly still have doubts, but I did it myself, and there is no one I trust more than myself =)
edit: here is him last night, afraid of a camera and me being a dumbass lol I'm terrible
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Yep. Me, too. I'm going armed with a couple of bottles of truth serum.... er... chartreuse. (By the way, if you've never taken a shot of chartreuse, you have no idea what the term "fire water" really means. It is evil, evil, evil stuff.) I figure I can wrangle some good commentary out of a few folks as long as I properly lubricate the gears.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I have told theists that I do have a belief system. I believe that mass delusion is dangerous. That usually gets me past the point of talking about a belief system but it probably makes them feel attacked.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
My wife said that she took a sip of chartreuse and said that it felt like something was burning it's way through her. That is all I need to hear. I don't think I'll try it but I am guessing that you are right about it lubricating the gears.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
When i try to debate kids (my age, high school) and when i am obviously 'winning' they just say "well nothing you say is gonna break my faith!". AND THEY MEAN IT.
It's completely wild. they are bred to have this mechanism. they absolutely refuse to be rational. they'll it admit that what i say makes complete sense, but they simply won't reason.
Teenagers, as a general rule, aren't all that mature and civil. Many of them are intelligent, a few of them occasionally demonstrate wisdom beyond their years... but in the right circumstances, most of them will want to show their inner bastard at some point.
A bunch of adolescents... feeling unstoppable, celebrating how stupid they are, and showing no foresight in their actions? You're joking, right?
Why would someone give up their core beliefs? If they believe they're going to some sort of magical garden in the sky simply for pressing their hands together every sunday and putting Jesus bobble-heads on the dashboard of their car, then how could they be expected to give that core belief up or even be bothered to understand beliefs that are diametrically opposed to theirs? (this is the sort of question I'd want to address to a lot of other RRS members, if it were actually possible)
Here's a helpful vid by "Amazing Atheist", for situations like the one you're in:
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
These kids have probably been told about Hell and how they aren't suppose to question God or they will go there. The good thing is that you have planted the seed of doubt with them. Something you said might eventually make sense to some of them. If it does, they will eventually see through this Christianity stuff and start thinking for themselves.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1