Strange Occurrences vs. Rationality
Okay, I've got yet another one. I have a ghost in my apartment. I won't bore you with all the strange things that have happened here. Tonight, though, I was trying to find the remote for my DVD player. I looked over on the bookshelf and there was a remote control. I grabbed it. Unfortunately, it was a remote control from a piece of electronics that I haven't had for years. Why I kept the remote I have no idea, but it was tucked away in a drawer somewhere. There's no reason whatsoever that I'd have taken this thing out of the drawer and placed it on the bookshelf. But there it was. It's also all covered with dust because I haven't used it for years. A number of other things like this have happened here, also.
This is another case where I'd like to know how you all can rationally explain something like this. Please don't resort to telling me my memory sucks or that I'm insane, because it doesn't and I'm not.
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If you're right, then there's still a problem. He claims that ghosts interact with the physical world. They move remote controls from closed drawers to bookshelves. That's empirically verifiable, and a regular old video camera will capture it.
If ghosts don't interact with the physical world at all, then how does he detect their existence? The brain is part of the physical world, and if a person's mind is detecting a ghost, that means the ghost is interacting. Perhaps ghosts are in the business of only tickling one specific part of the human brain to announce their presence. If so, fMRI would detect it.
In other words, either they interact with the world or they don't. If they do, it's detectable. If they don't, then for all practical purposes, they don't exist to us. While it's certainly possible that they interact with the world in a way that we don't have an instrument to detect yet, the ghost advocate owes science an explanation for how moving remotes around is undetectable by science. They can't have their cake and eat it too. Either ghosts don't do anything detectable by science or they do. If they don't, then stop talking about moving remotes. If they do, then videotape it.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Such a person can have dozens of parasiting discarnates, who occupy much of that person's consciousness. This is not a classical obsession as in The Exorcist, this is resonance between the alcoholism of a living person and alcoholism of a ghost, that makes it possible. There is not much reasonable talk with the host most of the time and his gaze is far-away. Frequent changes of behavior are also possible. There are of course equivalents of discarnate parasitism in any kind of addiction, but the most dangerous are lonely suicide ghosts. Always, personal weakness of a particular kind opens the door of opportunity for the discarnate, most of people are resistant to them. There are also relatively well-meant cases, for example a dead grandmother that wants to "protect" a weak newborn grandchild by attaching to it. "Wow, grandma is my helpful spirit, how nice!" the host may think. But being affected subconsciously by oldies' opinions on relationships and life in general is not good. Therefore, not even this kind of discarnate parasitism is advisable.
Getting rid of the discarnate parasites is another favor that a good occultist can provide. My mom has training in that and long practice. But with alcoholics and similar people it's practically impossible, their thoroughly drunk aura is so holey, that even if you remove a dozen or two of ghosts they will soon catch another dozen. By the way, these discarnates are sometimes caught on photographs. They show as will-o-wisps around or above people.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Just curious, if the ghost only affects a person's subconscious then how could that person possibly know the ghost is there. You mention frequent changes of behavior, but it is conceivable that a person could frequently change his/her behavior without the influence of a ghost.
You do also mention some "reasonable talk" with the host. If a person is experiencing this "reasonable talk" is there any way to distinguish him/her from a schizophrenic?
could you perhaps post links to some of these pictures?
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
Ah, so THAT'S why this ghost chose to bug me. *pours another*
Btw, a coworker of mine once had a ghostly experience at the opera house where we work. She later discovered a photo she'd taken of the spot where it happened (which she took for a completely different reason), and there's a strange white cloud in the photo. I've seen it. Of course, everyone in here will immediately say "reflection from the flash" (even though there's really nothing reflective in the photo). For me, however, her experience plus a strange phenomena in a photo taken in the very same spot is enough to make me suspicious. I've been wanting to ask her for the photo so I can scan it, but I always thought that'd be a little weird.
First of all, I would like to give you a link to a recent xkcd comic.
http://xkcd.com/718/
just replace "alien" with ghost and it applies to this situation remarkably well.( Though not perfectly as I realize his stories are not derived from internet blogs and news sources)
On another note, the real reason I asked Luminon for photos is that he has just described a way that the first paranormal experience could be verified and accepted by the scientific community! If what he says is true, he could have a team of ghost watchers come and place a video camera in the building his mother works in. then they would repeatedly capture footage of real live ghosts! This would surely catch on in the press as repeated attempts by various different independent groups all yielded the same results. This would open up an entire new field of science and likely make his family multimillionaires!
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
Yeah, I suggested what to try to increase the possibility. A true solution would be to employ a physicist good at light and electromagnetic spectrum, and a good chemist who specializes in photographic materials and, substances. And some person who can provide know-how on the so-called aura photographing technology, that could help the team too. And engineer, of course.
Testing would be easy, taking a few photographs in a hospital, cemetery and pub full of people.
My information is that eventually film tape with recorded sound should be possible, but photographs are the beginning.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
So then why have you not contacted one of the ghost hunters referenced by Answers in Genesis in post #45?
Assuming everything you have stated is correct, a huge scientific breakthrough, fame, and wealth has been only a phone call away for the entirety of the time your mother has been working (which I presume is several years). The fact that you or your family has not done this only serves to convince me that you are lying.
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
Counter-question:Why do I necessarily care what some faceless boozehound on the internet thinks about "ghosts"?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Well, I have not seen the guy around in a couple of years. I know him from ocforums.com (high performance computing) and cloudynights.com (general astronomy). Yes, I am a nerd. Apparently, he had some type of flip out and he requested account deletion on both websites. So I really can't contact him again.
Strictly out of morbid curiosity, where did you come across the info about using UV to image ghosts? Link please?
I did some googling on the matter and I came up dry on the UV thing. However, I did find a few ghost hunter web sites that all sell a variety of IR detection stuff. Apparently, when ghosts are present, the temperature drops (I guess like in that bad Bruce Willis movie where he is a pshrink dealing with a kid who sees ghosts and it turns out in the end that the Willis character was a ghost himself through the whole movie). So IR can be used to detect the change in therperature.
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Don't ask. Save yourself, run!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Dude! The name in Answers in Gene Simmons!
It is a deliberate slam on the fundie website. That and the fact that I play bass and KISS is just the coolest band on the planet. It takes an average of four days for my hearing to return to normal after a KISS concert. I have yet to attend a concert by any other band that is that loud.
You may also run into me on the intarweb as David Warner or Malpine Walis.
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o, sorry. I'm not sure why I thought the ... refered to sis
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
Well, aside from an actual unaltered photograph, I don't really know what else I can provide for you.
Drink your spirits, little manchild, or else we may not find any... spirits? Blah, wtFUCKever.....
(BTW, if I don't see the words "YHBT, n00b!" on my monitor in the next day or so.... I'm going to be really fucking disappointed)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Seriously, calm down. Do you have anger management issues?
I think he might be manic again.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
BOO
...die.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
...you see dis foamy stuff collecting around my maw right this moment?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
So, then we have two options:
1. you fall into the category of people who misinterpret a physical or physiological experience. The spot on the photograph is caused by one of many other plausible and common occurrences which cause discoloration in pictures.
2. The imperfection in the photograph's lighting is actually the image of a ghost
From the point of view of any reasonable person, what do you think is likely to be the preferred option?
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
Oh, I get it... you're accessing the website from some sort of 'IT gadget'............... hmph.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Firstly, there's no contact on that guy. Secondly, I don't have any specific information, just direction where to look. I have no idea if and how that is supposed to work. It is logical, astral atoms vibrate more and logically astral light will have higher frequency, therefore will be on the ultraviolet side. But this is not catching signals from cosmos, this is a work with photography.
Thirdly, the job of my family is not to propagate ghosts in science, we don't have contacts and know-how for that. We've got already a plenty of projects of our own, that will evolve consciousness of the living people. Fourthly, in these times every good esotericist's priority is to save the planet, as Benjamin Creme well demonstrates. Close stock markets, share resources, stop war, use cold fusion, re-define society, that must be at least started. Then there will be a plenty of time for photographing ghosts and other esoteric technologies.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Well, it's been a while since I've seen the photo, but all I'd say is you'd have to just see it and compare it with another taken seconds prior that came out perfectly normally.
I am, believe it or not, a fairly reasonable person, I just like to keep my mind open to possible explanations you wouldn't. Personally, I don't find the existence of "ghosts" to be all that hard to believe. I won't even try to claim that it's a spirit appearing from beyond the grave, perhaps not. But I also find it somewhat suspicious that the places these occurrences are most often witnessed tend to be the oldest, most storied, and often with the most notorious pasts. That easily describes this building, with a history of 125 years, including bizarre deaths, murders, suicides, and who knows what else.
Things like this happen to humans all the time. We forget stuff. I have done this on countless occasions, don't bother saying your memory doesn't suck just because you don't remember it sucking.
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You cannot disprove the existance of God, but you also cannot disprove the existance of an all powerfull, incomprehesible, pink elephant that lives in the boot of my car.
Have you considered sleeping disorders or some form of multiple personality condition? Most people have gone their entire life without encountering something they cant logicaly explain. Those who cant explain the event can rarely prove it happened.
One nation under Allah....start practicing it now the day is upon us.
I assert that I do have an open mind. I define the term "open mind" to mean that I do not reject claims unless I have evidence to justify their rejection.
You appear to also have an open mind. Where we differ is that you pick certain explanations and arbitrarily state that they are more likely than others even though both are equally support.
Let us review the information:
1. you have a picture with a strange imperfection in its lighting which we do not currently have an explanation for
2. many similar stories seem to occur in places with interesting histories
You have taken this information and stated that the idea that ghosts cause at least some these occurrences is more likely than other equally justified alternative explanations. For example you have not considered the following:
1.People are more likely to misinterpret physical events in old buildings with long histories.
2.Old buildings are structurally less sound than new ones and are usually not maintained as well. This lack of maintenance causes events that are more likely to be misinterpreted. For example, older, poorly maintained buildings have more dust, have wooden panels which squeak more often, and various other characteristics which are likely to cause people to experience events in unfamiliar ways. These buildings appear to have interesting histories because when no constraint is placed on what constraints define an interesting history, almost any old building will have had at least one event which can be considered interesting or bizarre.
3.People are more likely to hallucinate in places with interesting histories. These hallucinations are then only remembered when some other physical event combined with confirmation bias makes them associate it with ghosts.
4. Aliens, not ghosts are responsible for these events. For some reason the aliens decided to make them occur more frequently in the buildings you described
5.These strange occurrences are the result of a conspiracy by some independent group (possibly the government, a club of some sort, or an organization we do not of) which is trying to confuse people.
In fact, I could theoretically develop infinitely many other explanations to describe the two pieces of information we have. The fact that you place ghosts as somehow more likely than any of the other infinitely many explanations does not make you any more open minded than I am.
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
I lived in germany when I was a kid. My mom is a weird person who believe in um, everything. We went to one of the castles there and a cool breeze came through a room. She said it was a ghost, and I at the age of 6 agreed with her. Now I know it was just a random breeze, but being young and dumb, my mom's weirdness was somehow projected into me, she believed it so I wanted too as well.
Have you been watching ghost stuff on tv or what, because ghosts are not real.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Source please.
http://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Xenonormal.htmlhttp://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Paranormal%20reality.html
some decent links, i'll admit they do not back up the statement 100% because a statement so general cant be proved.
One nation under Allah....start practicing it now the day is upon us.
Yeah, those aren't statistics.
Not only do they not back up the statement. They do not even refer to the statement in any way.
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
I think you might encounter some resistance on here for this one.
I would consider aliens more likely than ghosts, because we have evidence that corporeal life exists in the universe, which is something at least.
Granted, I would consider aliens moving your remote for giggles to be pretty damned unlikely, but more likely than disembodied spirits doing the same.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I agree with you Mellestad. However, Smartypants has already demonstrated that he is not applying Occam's Razor to this situation. When Occam's Razor is not applied, the two possibilities appear to be equally likely.
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
I stated that using Aliens as an explanation for the events you refer to is an equally capable method of explaining them as using ghosts as an explanation.
Why would I encounter resistance for this statement?
(originally, I was going to wait for the resistance, and then address it. However, after several days, I have experienced no such resistance. So I am asking you to describe the resistance you were referring to.)
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
The thing is, an "alien" as we traditionally think of the term, would be a physical being of some sort. Presumably, it would have also evolved on another planet, and there would be some way to scientifically describe an alien's existence. It would almost have to be organic -- that is, carbon based -- since carbon is the only element versatile enough to form something as complex as DNA (as far as I know. If there's a chemist who can prove me wrong, I'll happily concede.) It would occupy space and time in meaningful ways. Etc...
We can talk all day about the improbability of aliens currently being on or near earth. And the improbability is staggering! But, at least an alien is a workable theory. Like I've said, a ghost is not even a hypothesis since it doesn't propose anything. Or rather, it doesn't propose anything falsifiable about what a ghost might be.
So, in that sense, aliens are a better hypothesis since they are at least proposed to be something real. But for anyone to argue aliens vs. ghosts is sort of like betting on whether I or my next door neighbor will win the world championship of table tennis in Beijing this year. Might as well just work a crossword puzzle over lunch and actually accomplish something with your life.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
There is more evidence that aliens have visited this planet than there is for a god.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin