A God of love and a God of Eternal Torture... what?
Offline The biggest beef I have with Christianity is the absurd notion that eternal torture is in any way 'just' or 'moral'. To me, it seems impossible and illogical to try to reconcile the idea of a loving God with a wrathful, jealous, angry God that tortures some of his children for eternity for simply not believing in him.
If we heard a story about how someone tortured 500 children by burning bits of their flesh off, for over 10 years, we would be morally outraged and call this person a monster. We would demand justice and the death penalty most likely for this terrible evil fellow. Yet, what the Bible suggests is something infinitely worse and infinitely more cruel and immoral.
Christians seem to attempt to justify it by saying things like "God never sends anyone to hell, they choose to go there"... etc. That's a load of BS in my book. They might not believe in God, but they certainly didn't "choose" to end up in a lava pool for all eternity either. Or, the idea that because God is perfect, he cannot be in the presence of sin. This seems like an incredibly childish and ignorant argument. Are these people assuming that God, who created everything in the entire cosmos, cannot simply eradicate sin? Or that God cannot deal with sin? God created everything. I think they are lowering God to their level by putting limits on him that humans can relate to.
The concept of a God of love eternally torturing people seems bipolar to me, no matter what angle I view it at.
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Missblue. It's on the basis of this torture concept I tend to believe fundamentalist christians are sociopathic. They are so needful of eternal life they can compartmentalise the threatened torture of billions, obviously through the expedient of de-humanising other people yet pretend it's all our fault for not believing. I could not worship a murdering god - I can't think of the concept without getting upset. I find it useful to ask the christian if they would themselves be prepared to light the ovens of hell to incinerate the billions. None have ever said they would but almost all shift responsibility sideways to almighty god and they do it with an astonishing lack of concern for the broader moral issues at stake. Of course, we've seen this "I'm not responsible" behaviour before from lovely people like the nazis.
I think on the alleged Judgment Day most christians would find the actual shovelling of billions of people into dante's inferno clashed strongly with their ideas about love and forgiveness - the later of which seems to be a concept god doesn't adequately understand . Judgment Day in my estimation would be a gigantic riot from start to finish and I can't imagine the angels getting through it without having some feathers plucked.
Hey, welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy it.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
My husband says this is his one and only made-up joke:
It's judgment day. God with Jesus on his right, Satan is on the left, sitting up there and staring down at the hordes of people.
God looks at Jesus and says, "This will fucking take forever." Jesus replies, "Too right." Satan says, "Hey, I have an idea" and leans over to whisper to God and Jesus. "Right!" says God, "Michael, come over here. Tell them, <whisper>" Michael calls out,
"Okay, everyone, anyone who is Christian, raise your hands. Good! Now all those with your hands raised, file out that door to the left!"
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Most Christians want to live forever, so they believe the everlasting life tripe, but they don't want any blood on their hands, so they try to pull the "our god is one of love" bullshit, which can be easily disproved with just a cursory glance at their Holy Babble. Conversations about the violent nature of many deities always makes me think of a comment on the Adam and Eve thread from Atheistextremeist:
BRILLIANT!
+1000 points to Atheistextremeist! (and a +10 modifier to Charisma and Intelligence!) XD
As to a person who REALLY loves his Holy Babble, and not just the lovey-dovey hippie stuff, this caller to The Atheist Experience takes the cake! And then with the power with the mighty YouTube, an individual going by the name Kirke420, makes a name for himself by singing of the brilliant exchange.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
You are given a brief easy test, pass or fail, it's not god's fault if you fail. He has given you the free will to decide and he already knows the outcome.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Yea, hell is what started me down the path towards atheism.
Welcome!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Welcome to the forum.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
My aunt whom is a pastor threatens me weekly that ill go to hell. Its because i havent attended church since my world view changed i think already for 3 years. imagine getting weekly preaches of eternal damnation. And thou i get pressured almost every week i never felt better knowing that their god is a total nut job and i prefer reading aesops than from their scriptures.
Not only can water float a boat, It can sink it also.
One thing about Hell amuses me. God is suppose to be perfect and worthy of our worship and Satan is suppose to be evil. However, there isn't anything that Satan would be capable of doing (biblically) that is as evil as creating a place of eternal torture and allowing people to go there. In other words, God's actions are more evil than Satan's according to the Bible.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
At least Aesop never said to stone anyone. I don't remember him having a fable in which people cut off their hands and gouged out their eyes either.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
aesop ftw!
i actually understood his fables better when i was a kid.
Not only can water float a boat, It can sink it also.
Come one now, peace is achievable as long as the authoritarian figure in a myth or a government gets what it wants, and you do what it says. "Peace" only refers to the utopia that others submit to you.
Peace in reality is the acceptance that we will not always agree, and we all like to bitch, but none of us, in all that, want harm to come to us.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
This problem have often been rationnalized by different ways:
* God from the religions of the Books is by definition all-good (thus free from any evil), so if he tortures people eternally just for lack of belief, he is not crual or wicked , rather he has necessary a good reason to do so, even if the latter is beyond our understanding.
Pretty circular, isn't it? With this kind of reasoning, one can conceive everything one wants: for instance a perfect and absolutelly all-good ghost that rapes women.
The only bound is our foolishness. If some proselytes propose such a mysterious God to atheists, they must certainly not wonder why the latters don't get convinced.
Others claims that unbelievers don't follow God because they are ungrateful towards God's benefits for mankind and thus deserve to burn in Hell.
=> this argument lasts only by the confusion it causes. Gratefulness makes only sense when you are convinced of the existence of the person who benefit you.
As for unbelievers, this is not the case... or an other interpretation can be done: that argument makes the baseless assumption that atheism doesn't exist, and we all feel God's existence. In that case, any person who would considers himself as atheist would be fooling himself, since in his heart of hearts he would know that God isn't imaginary.
Welcome to the forum.
Part of the rationalization if there is any on the part of the believers is since the god created us it has the right to do what ever it wants. This is somewhat akin to slave ownership where the owner can use his slaves in anyway and it's completely OK. This is shown in the OTs view of if you beat a slave and he is injured but lives, as he is the owners property no harm no foul. Since the god made all is the logic he has a perfect right to eradicate or torture his created play toys. When the play toys decide to do something that shows independent thought in a direction that the god does not approve of, he simply stomps them into non-existence or promises to torture them forever more as a punishment. The god is your owner in their view and as with a slave can do whatever it wants. The OT god clearly was a schizophrenic in need of therapy.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
thank you for your answer.
Finally, I have the bad impression that this so-defined God is anthropomorphic.
missblueyes:
Completly agree. I find it incompatible too and I think that there is a catch....I think, If they are talking about "free will" (beside it´s nonsense), they are simply foregeting important point. Maybe, we in the western civilization, have a choise to "choose Him" - but what about some kids from fundamental muslim families...there is literally no way, how can such a kid realise, whats going on. From first baby steps their parents loads them with incredible bullshits, their media are bias against christianity and so they have at least 50% lower chance to "find the true god". And are they going to Hell? Sure they are (according bible). I don´t think, that this argument is best one, but I think it´s good to pull out it in debate with "the others"
PS: I must confess, that I am polite man.....but honesly?...I really think, that "the others" have some kind of illness which blocks some part of brain (probably in left hemisphere) and don´t let any neurons do their work
Yea, apparently God is love, but if you don't love him you burn in hell. If God existed he would be one of the biggest hypocrites.
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You cannot disprove the existance of God, but you also cannot disprove the existance of an all powerfull, incomprehesible, pink elephant that lives in the boot of my car.
You have free will and free choice... now Love me or burn. Hey its your choice.
It's almost as stupid as this one.
God loves you so much he came to earth in the flesh / had a son and sent him to earth to be tortured and killed as a sacrifice to himself to appease his own wrath under the condition that you believe that this masochistic tantrum happened and was for YOU, in order to save you from god torturing you too after you die, only forever.
PS he loves you. i he didn't he would come down demand love, kill himself, and make that a requirement for you to believe in to spare you from his rage and plan to torture you forever if you don't.
Just to get it out of the way, the "Punch You in the Head for Jesus Song" is easily the best thing I've seen all day. I'm sure I'll be humming it all day long.
I don't really think that I have anything to add to the fundamental incompatibility of the notion of a loving god and eternal hellfire argument. The two are so obviously at odds with one another that you would have to willing blind yourself to not see it. And I suppose that's what this comes really down to, for me anyway: theists are willingly and uncritically irrational about the things they believe. When you think about it that's really, really scary.
I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone here that Christians are notorious for cherry picking the parts of the Bible that they want in the public consciousness. The fact that the non-choice of hell via free will is front and center in their proselytizing speaks to a dangerously passive-aggressive latent worldview.
After all, if god in his infinite "compassion" doesn't care enough to spare the overwhelming majority of the world's population from an eternity of torture, why not punch some heretics in the head for Jesus?
Magnets, how do they work?
The Bible says this about that.
Isaiah 45:9
Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’?
Romans 9:19-21
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
So the Bible says Don't be stupid you moron. Shut up and sit down.
To that I reply: Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence.
You are his play toy. Let the Christians quake. He is a God of Love...He is a God of Love...He is, etc.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Extracts from Surah 1 of the Qu'ran:
http://mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/tafseerexplanation-of-surah-1-of-quran.html
The root word for Islam is “al-Silm,” which means “submission” or “surrender.”
1:3 [You are] the Supreme Ruler[4] of the Day[5] of Complete Submission[6] [to Your Sovereignty, when no one will be subservient to another and all matters will be decided in accordance with Your Prescribed Laws {9:33, 82:17-19}]; the Absolute Master {17:111} [Who possess the right over everything and Has power to direct and control them according to Your Self-defined Laws] of the day of Judgement {26:82, 37:20-21} and Recompense {51:12-13, 56:56}[when none whosoever will have power to do anything for anyone and all the affairs will take place according to Your Sole Command {82:17-19}].
1:4 [Realizing these facts, we affirm that] We serve[7], You alone [by obeying Your Commands and doing only what is in accordance with Your Commands]
[4] MAALIK = The Lord = The Master = The Owner = The Sovereign = The One who possesses the right over things and has power to deal with them as He likes.
[6] DEEN = Requital = Recompense = Reckoning = Judgement = Obedience = Submissiveness = Submission = Religion = Government = Power = Authority = Management = Faith = Custom = Condition = Affair = Victory
[7] Dictionary meanings of the word ‘Abada عبد and its variants
I ‘abada: to serve, worship or adore; to render religious service, worship or adoration; to obey; to obey with humility or submissiveness; to be or become a slave or in a state of slavery [LL, LA]; to do what is approved (by God) [LL]; to serve or worship (ه a god); to adore, venerate (ه someone, a god or a human being); to idolize or deify (ه someone) [HW]; to accept the impression of a thing; to submit, devote, serve, worship, adore, venerate; to imbibe and reflect the Divine attributes or morals on one’s own person [AM]
The phrase “abd-Allah” (when used in Proper sense) is better NOT rendered as ‘the slave of Allah’ or ‘the servant of Allah’ because slave and servant may have a derogatory connotation
http://noblequran.com/translation/surah19.html
61. (They will enter) 'Adn (Eden) Paradise (everlasting Gardens), which the Most Beneficent (Allah) has promised to His slaves in the unseen: Verily! His Promise must come to pass.
63. Such is the Paradise which We shall give as an inheritance to those of Our slaves who have been Al-Muttaqun (pious and righteous persons - See V.2:2).
93. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) as a slave.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=islam&searchmode=none
"religious system revealed by Muhammad," 1818, from Arabic, lit. "submission" (to the will of God), from root of aslama "he resigned, he surrendered, he submitted," causative conjunction of salima "he was safe," and related to salam "peace."
So what? I don't think that anyone here was suggesting that Islam was any better. Unless maybe you're under the mistaken assumption that atheists are really secret Muslims or something. Come to think of it that debate would actually be sort of awesome in a completely one sided sort of a way.
Magnets, how do they work?
My point is that religions are basically about slavery. Do as you're told, or else.
In an evolutionary sense, this could be seen as the necessary control of the individual for the sake of the group.
Understandably, this site usually focuses on Christianity; I thought I'd have a wider bash.
it is irrational to complain about a non-existent God.
but the Lake of Fire was intended for Satan and his angels who DO believe in him , not for Man .
lunacy warning!!!!.... a non-existent deity cannot send people to a non-existent place.
ok, do you have a choice or not? Yes you do.......what's your complaint?
see above.
but you wouldn't wish to go to Hell on the basis of how things "seemed" at the time!.......you need to know what is true. You think an infinitely holy God should be happy living with sin? How would that work?
yes he has, for those who want it eradicated........I assume you don't.
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
God is justified in doing this because no one is powerful enough to stop him. Christian morality is really that might makes right. If Satan became powerful than God, he would be right.
But you must admit it is convenient. Religion has the ultimate carrot(heaven) and the ultimate stick(hell), even if they are imaginary. Evangelizers can use either one for their own convenience.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
She is complaining about the Christian concept of God because she finds the concept unjust and inconsistent. It doesn't assume that God exists.
You don't believe in evolution, right? Yet, you still "complain" "about it."
An imaginary deity can send imaginary people to imaginary places. It can't send any real people to real places, but we can still discuss the moral implications of it.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Sorry about that x. In my experience, evangelicals sometimes try to deflect skeptical criticism of their beliefs by attempting to play "compare and contrast" with other religions. This is a special type of irrationality that particularly bugs me. Sorry again about jumping all over you about it. You're completely right about Islam not being a lot better than Christianity in the blind obedience and sheer brutality department, by the way.
Anyway, Freeminer.
And if that's what was happening you'd be completely right. It isn't though, so you aren't. What is happening is that, while we certainly don't believe in your god any more than we do Zeus or Cthulhu, we take as a given that you and other believers do believe that your god exists, is logically consistent, and worth following. In that vein we aren't apprehensive that some bronze age goat herders came up with a fictional entity who is kind of a dick, but rather that you and others feel that this entity's dickishness is both something just and logically consistent with unlimited mercy. Frankly, we don't care if your fiction justifies torture a la a really bad John Ringo novel, but it's pretty scary when other people feel that torturing non-believers is justifiable.
So fictional hell is a nice place, what with the gnashing of teeth and all? Listen, right now people have doubts about the humaneness of certain types of penal incarceration, which is arguably the most humane form of criminal punishment yet devised. Hell, as described by your bible (lake of fire or no), is still a far cry from even being that merciful.
Which side of this debate are you on?
There are two complaints. First, coercive choice is not "choice" in any commonly accepted sense of the word. In fact, most would consider the coercer to be pretty reprehensible. This leads nicely to the second complaint: namely that you and others seem to think that this choice is fair and that the consequences of any choice, no matter how heinous, could include an eternity of "just" torture.
The fact that you seem to think that believing in a premise with a shaky-at-best foundation like the divinity of Christ is more valuable in appraising people than their actions and motives is actually sort of sickening.
And if you based your value system around evaluating people by their actions and intents I guess it would matter. But let's face it, when acceptance of Jesus is a prima facie requirement for your value system's reward it doesn't actually matter how the majority of the world's population "seemed" at the time they did anything. Compound this with the fact that Christians tend to believe that failure to merely accept Jesus is as deserving of punishment as pedophilia or murder and it's understandable that we're concerned about your values.
Okay, let's roll with your premise here: hypothetical god hates sin and can't stand to live with it. Why would hypothetical god, who is responsible for all of creation, even bother with creating something that he hates? Especially given that when in the stories hypothetical god seems to not even blink when destroying men, women, and children who he hates? The point here isn't that I or really any other atheist believe that this is true, but that we recognize that Christians are bullet-headedly uncritical when they tout their god and bible about as being the (or even an) objective and unerring source of morality and wisdom.
Why would you assume that any rational person wouldn't be for the eradication of evil if such a thing could be? Also, do you have some proof of this eradication? It seems to me that even religious people are plenty fallible.
Again, I thought you were the theist here? In any event, the point at which you're willing to concede that if god exists he would be a bipolar torturer, you've failed at a fundamental level to convince anyone that he's worth following.
Magnets, how do they work?
I was sidetracking the topic somewhat. I've been doing a bit of 'compare and contrast' and probably should have made my point elsewhere. I'm leaning towards the idea that Islam is actually worse in this area.