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Why do we argue on here?
Posted on: March 30, 2010 - 10:37am
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Why do we argue on here?
Why is there arguing going on in this forum? Oh sorry, I meant to say why is there DEBATING going on? Even if you were to prove to a point to someone, atheist or theist, there is way too much pride, egotism, and overall close-mindedness to sway anyone's view on anything. Please don't be pretend to be open-minded.
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Maybe it's just me, but the exchanging of ideas, even if some of them are ridiculous is a good thing, even on forums like these, it allows not just those debating or arguing but those reading the debates to see those different ideas/arguments/topics.
Entertainment value.
Oh it's good to actually see other peoples views as well, even if you don't agree with them. Should we all just be silent and live in our own little box?
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
That's more or less what I thought...
...untill I actually started reading some of the threads here.
You are totally wrong.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Why are you arguing? There, you just answered your own question, congratulations.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
You egotistical swine!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Dryly pointing out absurdities is fun!
Hey now, I am passionately pointing out absurdities.
Anyway, what I don't understand is why someone would spend the time to do a drive by post like that. I mean, seriously, don't you have better things to do than register for a forum, post one thing whining about how much it sucks, then go back to whatever it was you were doing before?
Lord, it must get awfully busy telling all of the forums on the Internet what they are doing wrong.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Is it "closed minded" to tell someone the earth isn't flat? Since when are stating facts "closed minded"?
Closed minded is making a naked assertion and then being to much of a pussy to test your own claims and then get them independently verified outside your own bias.
You confuse the human right of believing what you want. Which everyone should have.
AND the separate issue of having the ability to demonstrate the words that you utter out of your mouth to others who have no horse in the race.(ON ANY GIVEN ISSUE ON ANY GIVEN CLAIM)
Closed minded is what a naked assertion is. It is claiming something and then selfishly setting up a taboo so that it cannot be examined.
Any claim that demands special protection is one that should be condemned and laughed at. A claim that cannot be tested is a claim worth rejecting.
It is the opposite. We are very open minded, but unlike theists our standard of evidence is not based on ancient myth or tradition, but based on that which is repeatable and falsifiable and independently verified.
It would not be closed minded of you to reject a claim of Thor making lighting. You know that is not true and you wouldn't be demonized by modern society which rejects that as well.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Because I'm right and I want everyone to know it
No, it is because a naked assertion is a naked assertion and without calling people on such things they don't get challenged and if they don't get challenged, humanity doesn't grow.
Otherwise you wouldn't have grown yourself. You started out here gangbusters sure that you were right and you have since changed your position. Your change wasn't due to our placating your position saying to you "isn't that nice". Your change was do to the fact that we didn't sugar coat life for you.
I am sure you know now that you are better off now because we didn't hold back.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Watching the arrogance, passive-aggressiveness, double-standardness, chest-thumping, endless masturbating of egos, crying "wolf!", pedantic fixation on inconsequential details, false ideals and notions of self, and faulty or inconsistent logic makes me feel a little less like a dolt every time I log on to a number of discussion websites - including RRS.
However, to simply state that many of the scattered giblets of petty squabbling amuses me to no end does a disservice to the more mature and wise RRS posters who frequently prove themselves to be far above said petty squabbling. That would also omit how frequently I display arrogance, passive-aggression, chest-thumping, stroking my ego, and post simply to point out how asinine any number of arguments are.
That would also seemingly obscure the fact that I do have my moments of "Shit! I can't believe I posted such garbage..." or that I have an unhealthy obsession with 'bad girls'. (Discussion for a rainy day...)
My first guess would be "for the very same reason people talk at all to begin with: social feedback"
I don't believe anyone has at RRS, at least with regards to the endless torrent of shite religions out there...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
But that doesn't mean people don't change their minds in the face of new evidence - even if the change comes quietly when the discussion is over. What are you implying? That we should only speak out if we agree with you?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
You can ask anyone on this forum. I have never claimed that I am open minded.
=
Believe it or not, I frequent these boards to learn: about common threads of argument, uncommon threads of argument, to hone and develop skills of logic. I don't always like reading the threads here, but I rarely go away without some new nugget of information.
I also make one pound for a five minute argument, and eight pounds for a course of ten.
Religion is a virus.
Fight the infection.
Dude, Brian. Chill out man. You are taking this way too seriously. lol.
Why are you arguing with him? Stop arguing. He has way too much pride, egotism, and overall close-mindedness to be swayed on his view of anything.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Wow, I don't really know how to respond to such an unintelligent reply. I guess the best thing to say is... wow. lol! (Go back to grade school doofus!)
I agreed with what latincanuck, robj101 and Anonymouse said. Alot of why I do this from time to time has a great deal to do with egotism and I would reluctantly admit, probably close-mindedness. But the real reasons I do this is to get feedback and for entertainment. TV is crap. I'm retired so I do this instead when I get burned out on my Website.
I think it is a great experience to have someone who strongly disagrees with you to get in your face. If you are so close minded that you can't learn from that (fortunately I'm not that close minded) then at least you are aware of an opposing position and the knowledge that there are people out there who are just as convinced as you are, just as knowledgable, just as willing to throw down and be heard . . . I think in and of itself is a learning experience. For a while.
I can't do it for too long like I used to. So, while I see your point I also see the others I mentioned.
I only argue things I feel are "bad" or just plain nutty that dont make sense. I don't really argue the existence of god, because that argument is mute to me, whether theirs a god or not things still seem to be happening and this world is still doing what it does so thats my main concern. So I can't see how I'm closeminded, I read other people's holy books. I read the teachings of the Falun Gong with an open mind just to see what's its all about. My agenda is not to make people athiest, why woulud I care if someone is or isn't an athiest. All I care about is if they do believe in god, what other things does that mean. Because in my experience with most people when you believe in god it doesn't stop their, you have to add all this crazyness to it (anti-homosexuality, telling children about raptures, etc...) and that stuff bothers me. Pure god belief doesnt bother me at all, I don't know forsure their is no god.
See... see I had a bet with the guy and he's like "I bet you can't make a rock so big you can't lift it" and I'm like "YEAH I CAN" so then we had some Yeager's, made a bigass rock, and JUST WENT NUTS!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
*sigh*
Clearly, you're too simple-minded to understand such a nuanced response, so since I have some time, I'll take the chore of spelling it out for you.
This is what you wrote in the OP, "Even if you were to prove to a point to someone, atheist or theist, there is way too much pride, egotism, and overall close-mindedness to sway anyone's view on anything. Please don't be pretend to be open-minded." Your very first post on this forum seeks to argue that no one here should argue with each other about anything because no one can be convinced of anything. This is not a good first impression; everyone here except you can spot the irony. You're arguing that arguing is pointless; why are you arguing?
Your confused response to my satire is even more suggestive.
You don't know how to respond because you don't even understand what I wrote.
I am rather tempted to tell you to return to grade school as well, but in your case, this would probably be a compliment. You're probably in grade school.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I wanted to touch on this "athiests = closeminded" thing. I as well as many others I've talk to became athiest after a period of extensive open-minded research into religion, it's many holy books and their philosophies. I tried very hard to experience what others said they have:
-Reading something so profound in a holy book you are convinced it is devine
-Feeling a connection to a diety or feel their presence
-Have some kind of revelation that pointed me to "god" belief
I prayed 1000 times to "god" honestly and humbly that if he was real to show me wihtout a doubt, and that without a doubt his intentions are good. If he did I would have no choice but to believe and tell others of his good intentions. 1000 non-awnsers, 1000 non-connections, 1000 non-revelations. I stopped trying at about 17-18 yrs. I kept serching for many more years for god, and more importantly a rational good god. Ofcourse the bible or the Quaran could be true, but that would mean were left with a wacka jacko kind of god. Once I found no real value in these 2 books I moved on through a little budhism, lots of Falun gong research, and travelled listenening to everyones individual beliefs their stories, there personal reasons for believing, and what they consider to be evidence for his existence. In the end, I came to conclusion that either god doesn't exists (much more plausible to me), or he does and he's either nuts/stupid/ or just plain incompetant, and doesn't seem to really affect us at all.
So this is the reason for my athiesm. I can't speak for all and I'm sure their are many close-minded athiests, but for me and most I have encountered the journey to athiesm is a long open minded one.
Stuff like your post makes me think there is something to the idea that some people are simply wired to be more likely to experience theistic bliss. I know I never experienced any trancendent moments either.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I'm still trying to figure that one out. Or maybe it's just their standard of what they consider theistic bliss. I've certainly sat by a lake on a sunny day and had a warm fuzzy feeling that made me feel (hmmm, how do you put it) like that feeling is to powerful to be a reaction to just the lake and sunny day. I had it when I got on the plain when I went backpacking, and I get it sometimes around the ocean, nature, etc... Is that what their talking about? Because in those moments I never felt a devine presence, just a little being taken out of that place breathless in the moment type thing. That's just not enough for me, all it explains is my brain is experiencing it this way, and it is mechanically controlling this reaction.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAH GOOD ONE MAN! Insulting me straight to my face is always the way to win an (dare I say it) argument and in your case make you look totally cool! You win!
XD
Well your initial question was pretty close minded to start with. BTW your avatar name is doing you too much justice.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
I think it's just human nature, part of our survival to fight for what we believe is in our own best interests. But what people then end up doing is trying to claim what they want is really in the best interests of society, concealing their true self-centered interests. That's when people go off the rails, start arguing based on emotion and anger rather than reality and facts.
In science, people don't argue if if something can be empirically proven true or false. We don't see an endless debate about whether a drug can cure some disease. They do an experiment, determine the validity of the claims, determine what the side effects. End of debate.
But in politics(and religion), people advocate for one type of government/society(theism) that is supposed to suit everyone in the world and cure everything that ails us. It's not based on evidence of what would work and what is sustainable, but rather on what the person arguing feels is 'fair'. Critics are labeled with all kinds of personal attacks about their lack of morality in an attempt to silence their objections.
It would seem to me that a rational person would want the same standard for evidence and proof to apply in the fields of politics/government/economics that we do in science. Why not create micro-societies that can prove the benefits and problems with a particular ideology? I still want people that disagree with me politically to have a place in this world where they can live under their own rules and then we can see the effects and not have these endless political disagreements.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Well you are just too perceptive aren't you. In fact, my whole point was to be close-minded and see if someone (such as your incredibly erudite self) would pick up on it. Congratulations! By the way I think you are just too kind to comment on my "avatar name." I hoped someone would appreciate it!
I'm taking that as a compliment, I shall scribble down one point towards myself in my small book of ego.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Oh stop it, underneath that Daddy Warbucks fan club is a softy at heart.
All kidding aside though, what people call "open minded" is nothing more than a closed minded justification for credulity. To be open minded you have to be willing to have what you claim tested by others.
We are "open minded" in the human right's sense. But we are also open minded in that, "Ok, you claim x-, I'll adapt that position with the presentation of credible independently verified evidence."
Calling any skepticism to any claim "close minded" is nothing but the expression of one who is insecure with their position. If you have something to back up what you claim, then you have nothing to fear because it will be obvious and universal and widely accepted.
I would suggest as part of our skepticism we call people on it when they call us "closed minded". That is the cry of the insecure who want a taboo set up so they don't have to do the intellectually honest thing and test and verify their own claims. Protecting one's ego is lazy, introspection is where growing happens.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
(just off the top of my head)Galileo- obvious, universal, and widely accepted.
Or not.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
*sigh*
Right, why do I even care? He doesn't even read what I'm writing.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Not at the time.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
Oh yeah, well I strongly disagree and feel compelled to argue about it !!!!
Dude, I hear ya. I used to come to this website years ago because I actually wanted to talk with atheists about their beliefs but their is not much intellectual discussion to be had here. In the end, I think atheism is fucking retarded and the thing that really irks me about people on this whole site is that they don't see that atheism takes just as much faith as believing in something higher. Do yourself a favor, just leave this site alone and let these people live in their delusional world. What I've come to find is that if you are really secure in what you believe or don't believe in, you won't need to constantly defend it like so many of the losers on this site who seem to don't have much of a life outside of these forums.
Enjoy your pointless life you atheist nerds!
Dude..duude..dude...dooood...dewd..duuuuude..dewwwwwd..dudedudedude..dooooood.
Wow.
Are all his 2800+ posts like this one?
Watch for the key phrases (not verified) & joined 1969-12-31. It means they are E-mailed in with a name and Brian Sapient post them all under the same heading. jojoorlando has posted here before, maybe a dozen times but no where near 2800+."Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Its simple, by debating ideas you get to know your own position better. Can anyone here honesty say they knew all there reasons for disagreeing or agreeing on the whole god thing before before they started debating them? Did you know all your reasons why the other people are wrong before you started debating? Debating keeps topics alive, and prevents you just taking what you think on faith. Why do you think most people can tell you why they are for or against abortion but not something like plate techtonics? Because one is debated and the other isn't, it is granted a sort of automatic truth value even if you don't know why.
This probably isnt why anyone does, but it is a positive outcome even if no one changes there mind.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
ahhh, yes. the last refuge of every troll: IT WAS ALL A BIG SOCIAL EXPERIMENT, AND YOU PLAYED RIGHT INTO MY HANDS!!!! DANCE, PUPPETS, DANCE!!! AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
No one got my baseketball reference, that should have ended it all, lol
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin