Oh, Skycake!
Offline Hey all. I'm happy to find a place to speak to people with common sense. One thing about me: I'm agnostic. I know, I know. This is "a place for activist atheists to unite", so I'm bound to hear some crap. That's cool. I'm just looking for people who aren't, hmm...well, Christian. I live in a very conservative place and everyone one I know is crazy! Maybe that's exaggerating. I need to speak with others that are like-minded. I have a tendency to believe in some type of being that maybe created us a long-ass time ago and then went to get a sandwich. Or not. Doesn't really matter one way or another. That's my stance, since we're on the subject.
The real reason I'm here is not to talk about my agnosticism, necessarily, but to find a respite from all the dogma floating around out there. The thing that frightens me the most is that Christianity is so enmeshed in our lives, in subtle ways. Many people just take it for granted that I am one. Or that everyone is a Christian. And it's not something you'd notice until you get out of that whole mess and start looking at it from the outside. I even have Christian-guilt typing "that whole mess"! I can't think of a better example of a cult, wielding it's power from the grave.
Rational response. That's what I'm looking for from people. I'd like to talk to you guys and get input to try to help me "come out" and also to spread the word of reason. Because, let's face it: our recruiting squad is WAY behind. Thanks for your time!!
Jennifer
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Hey, Jennifer . . . I'm a believer, lets talk about GOD!!
[Laughs] Only joking. Well, I'm not, but . . . welcome to the Forum! There are plenty heathens about so you will be fine.
Welcome! Stay away from the threads with Paisley if you want to avoid crazy theism
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Hi Jennifer. Welcome to the forum!
Would you say that you're essentially uncertain about God's existence or that you feel it's a lot more likely that God does not exist.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Pretty sure that there is/was something. But being the textbook agnostic I am, I know that it's an unknowable question. And even if there is a God I'm pretty sure I'll never understand it. So I don't worry about it all that much.
Your first sentence doesn't jive with the second, third and fourth. If you are pretty sure there is/was something, how can the question be imponderable? To get you 'pretty sure' there must be some evidence that you accept either way, even if it is only intuition.
I guess I am saying is if it is unknowable, I don't see how you can be pretty sure either way.
Or are you just pretty sure something existed because you think that there must have been a prime mover?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Well, what do you mean by 'something?'
Does unknowable mean that you can't know for certain or that you can't talk about it at all?
Why not?
Eh, I'm sorry we're poking at your beliefs from all directions as soon as you come through the gate. This probably wasn't what you wanted. If you don't want to answer, you don't have to.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Yea, what he said.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Hey Jlofritts. I happen to be both an atheist and an agnostic. I don't pretend to know anything, but I believe it is highly unlikely that there is a god. There are greater odds that I will win the lottery twice without playing.
Cannot... resist...
The Skycake is a lie!
I got to talk to Coulton this weekend at PAX.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
butterbattle's questions...sorry I can't quote yet!
1: something is something. It's not nothing. I don't know = what it means.
2: Unknowable is that it means that we can speculate all we want but there could be nothing or something; we'll never know.
3: Why not understand God? In my rational mind I can't begin to think that I would ever be smart enough to understand a being of that complexity. I don't even understand myself most of the time.
I was just wondering why you felt it likely a creator deity existed. It makes sense that you would 'feel' that way, god belief is a big part of most western cultures.
If you think that was antagonistic, won't last long on this forum, "dog".
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Everything is something. Ice cream is something. But, when you say that you're pretty sure there is something, I don't think you're talking about ice cream.
Okay.
Okay.
Oh, you might find this link helpful.
How To Use The Quote Function
Yeah, seriously. Sooner or later, somebody is going to say you're ignorant or immoral or closed-minded.......or a *******......or threaten to torture you for all eternity.
Mellestad is probably one of the nicest frequent posters on this forum right now. You won't get much flak from him unless you're Paisley or something.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Aww!
Or if you say, 'feel me dog?' at the end of one of the stupidest posts I've read today. I sat at my keyboard for a few minutes, chanting, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" before writing a reply with that level of restraint.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I was being facetious about the "feel me, dog" and I think you know it. And how ridiculous a thing to say "if you think THAT was bad, you won't last long". Who are you to judge my threshold? Is it about competing to see who can stick it out the longest or what?
I don't care if you want to try to pick a part my feelings, beliefs, ideas. That's fine. What else are we here for? (Oh, what about support because we happen to be in the minority and need to make a community of our own in case the crazy religious people decide to come after us one day?) But what I don't like is the asinine way you went about it. You don't know me and you automatically condescend. It's a direct indicator of some serious insecurities.
And byt the way: I'm in it to win it baby! <-- (see, that was sarcasm)
welcome! permit me to issue a few caveats:
please realize these people are only trying to warn you that these forums are HARSH. insecurities notwithstanding, we have quite a few members here you haven't even met who, if they feel you've written something stupid, will pounce on you with unparalleled zeal and without so much as a "how do you do." i'm not this way myself; my upbringing was heavily (and often painfully) oriented on manners, and i have a considerably high tolerance for foolishness (relevant to the company i keep here). someone has to be a confirmed, unrepentant, and arrogant dimwit for me to pull out all the stops, but many here don't have that restraint, and that's absolutely their prerogative.
also, be warned that on this forum making ANY assertion is often automatically considered an invitation to debate, whether that was your intention or not. if you're looking for a place where the majority of people are supportive back-slappers, there are plenty of other options on the net for professing theists, atheists, and agnostics alike. we're happy to have you here, don't get me wrong, but unusually thick skin is recommended. a lot of new members tend to bail very quickly.
finally, allow me to stress that if you feel offended, whining about it will not net you any sympathy from anyone here. this is very rarely a "feel-good" place. in other words, if you're looking for K-Y jelly, go somewhere else. this is vaseline country.
oh, and have fun.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
I think you took that the wrong way. He's not trying to judge you.
Seriously, we're just saying that it can get very ugly here for multiple reasons.
1) This is the Internet, and we all know that...
2) This is an atheist forum. Theists will conduct drive-bys here on most days with some interesting insults. If they stick around, then you'll most likely see insults going back and forth, unless the theist is polite. You'll also occasionally get Muslims, Jews, non-religious theists and/or mystics, deists, pantheists, etc.
3) This forum is very lightly moderated. We're tolerant of all kinds of beliefs, and we're also very tolerant of insults, threats, bad attitudes, etc. (all to an extent, of course).
Ugh. Ouch. You're not making a very good first impression.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
You should really read what people are writing in this thread.
I'm *really* trying not to be judgmental here, because I know it can be tough to get a footing on this forum and understand the tone, but responding to our posts like this is like slitting your wrist in shark infested waters. Just remember that this is primarily a debate forum, and you know what debates look like on the Internet, right?
Half the people on this board would be calling you a stupid, whiny, pissant little fuck (or worse, I'm not very creative!) by this stage of this thread, and I'm not even resorting to hyperbole.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Welcome Jennifer!
I am the Happy-go-lucky RRS welcome wagon ~ a BIG HI and a smile to you
Jump right into any of the threads, you are going to have fun!
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
jlofritts,
people were not judging you based on unwarranted assumptions about you, they were reacting directly to the perceived tone and content of your posts.
Please feel free to continue here, it takes a lot to get kicked off RRS, but you may need to be a little less thin-skinned in reading 'condescension', or worse, into responses, and honestly look at the way your own posts could be seen as arrogant or condescending in themselves, even if you didn't intend that.
Particularly when communicating purely by text, it is very easy to misjudge the intent behind the words, and it can be hard to correct such mis-interpretation. I have had it happen to me, with other members who I really liked.
Just intended as helpful comment.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
A very good impression wasn't made on me. Ironically, in person I'm very polite...almost to a fault. But from the start my mettle was tested so I reacted in kind. And I'm not sure why everyone thinks that I have "thin skin" just because I'm not taking any shit. I understand you probably don't like that I insulted mellestad and that's cool. But I meant everything I said and if people don't like me on here I'm sure I'll just get lumped in with the theists and written off that way. Either way I'm not going to lose any sleep.
I'm not pressing any of my personal beliefs on others. I understand what you're saying though. I obviously had an initially skewed view of what this forum was about. I'm not looking for reassertion on my views; I don't need that. One thing that IS apparently clear is that you guys stick together and have some sort of community. While my views don't run exactly parallel to many on this site, I think that we have a lot in common. And at this point I don't have any particular expectations.
Look: I give you permission to pull out all the stops. I'm having a great time! At the very least you guys give me a challenge, which is exceedingly different from my normal day-to-day. Call it a free-for-all. You guys really don't know much about me so there's only so much mud to be slung; name-calling, hyperoble: let's do it. And you're right--stupid, whiny, pissant little fuck isn't very creative.
Thanks so much Renee! I feel very welcomed...
Sincerely, thanks. I'm looking forward to perusing the forums in the future and having many interesting interactions with the members. Hopefully I won't make enemies of everyone. But we'll see.
And to BobSpence1: originally I know I was very polite. My aggression (in my view, of course) was reactionary. I do appreciate your comments and will keep them in mind in the future. (except the thin-skinned mention, which I have already addressed)
Now can we talk about the crazy, cracker christians? Have I passed the test yet? (insert sardonic tone here)
Look, I hate to drag this out, but I don't get it. This started because I wrote this:
And you responded with this:
Was that ?*really* antogonistic in any way? Just re-read it and think about it. Everyone was pointing out that what I wrote was not at all hostile by the standards of this board, and you had a fit. If this is just a big mis-understanding then that is fine, but if you really, really think what I wrote is hostile then you're going to spend your time on this board feeling assaulted at every turn.
If it was a mis-understanding and you read something into my 'tone' in that first post, great, we can both move on, if it wasn't a mis-understanding I want to know now so I can know what to expect in the future.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
A bit antagonistic. Yeah. That was my pov. I might have lumped your response in with butterbattle's and the fact of the matter is that I wasn't expecting that reaction out of the gate. I thought this would be a respite from the constant idiocy I face with about 98% of people I come into contact with. So if you want to look at it like this I was pissed off and disappointed. The automatic response was exactly as if I had spoke to an uptight conservative theist: "Really? Why would you think that? You ought to think the way I think because otherwise you're stupid." Am I quoting what any one person said verbatim? Of course not. Was this the vibe that I got? Yeah. And I can tell you that if it's the vibe that I got then it's probable that it's a vibe that someone else has had in the past.
Pitch a fit, though? Just another way of saying that I defended myself and you didn't like it.
And I'm sorry that I had expectations in the beginning that a place could exist where *similar* minded people could connect and build a more enlightened fellowship than the crazies across the road. And you know what? I'm sure you guys are probably doing some great stuff, proving that people can have morality without religion, etc. But what does it say that you SEEM to be equally elitist and discriminatory to others who don't share your views 100%?
So you guys go ahead and set me straight because that's all that I've gotten out of this so far. (except for the wonderful add-on for the advert blocker from CJ, of course)
Well you may not feel so positive about me in a moment. See my avatar? I'm an old lady fart, really truly, so just keep that in mind. I haven't posted on this thread yet, but here goes.
This is the original quote:
I don't think anyone attacked you. Someone pointed out that they believed these sentences were - to their mind - contradictory. Okay. That's them. It really wasn't an attack, it was an observation. Sometimes you don't agree with another person's observation, sometimes you do. If you don't agree with each other, there is no need to defend yourself. You note the disagreement and move on.
When anyone becomes defensive, people just naturally start throwing in their nickle's worth. People on this forum feel free to toss out opinions and comments all the time. They aren't flaming anyone intentionally most of the time. (Fair warning, the political topics get really toasty.) And I am certain from your posts you are feeling a little overwhelmed. Take a deep breath, stand back and say - "their opinion of my opinion is really not important. I don't need to defend myself, I don't need to be upset, I just need to be a duck and let it slide off my back like water."
Okay?
I don't think this paragraph of yours is contradictory - regardless of what other people think - because I have friends and family who have a similar attitude. Doesn't hurt them, won't hurt you, and the other people around can lump it.
There is an idea that all agnostics are atheists. Some people are very certain this is true but I'm not. My husband was an agnostic for over 50 years - almost since he could talk - and only recently decided he was an atheist. Where a person puts themselves on the theist - atheist scale is a personal decision and no one else has to get involved.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
*sigh*
Mellestad, I think it's time to catch the train off this thread.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
i don't know if i would say that. i know sometimes people feel "ganged up on" here, particularly theists (i know you're not one), but if you just investigate the other threads you'll find that impression falls apart pretty quickly.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
*Sigh*
Ok. Fair warning though, if you want to discuss your agnosticism in a 'real' thread you're going to get questioned. If you want to discuss *anything* you will be asked to defend your opinion, often by people who actually agree with you...that is what this board is about. As others have pointed out, this is not a board for atheists to get away from theists, this is a board about atheists who want to debate theists and that generates a certain mindset. Everyone who posts here is called on to defend their opinion at some point. If that concerns you, well I guess that is your problem. Good luck.
@Butter: Yea, I guess, I tried.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I must point out that one of the forums on this board is 'for atheists to get away from theists' ~ it is freethinking anonymous ~ The forum this discussion is happening in is the introductions thread. No place is free from debate, but this is one place I would think we would welcome newcomers and encourage them to get involved in the entire site and not smack them upside the head as a greeting.
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
@Renee:
But I'll knock it off now.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Wow, you are so killing the fun with your reasonable and level-headed suggestions...
I thought I would just try to add to this by pointing out that debate is no longer debate when the entire point of posting becomes 'eviscerate the other guy's PoV and refuse to see eye-to-eye on anything'. At that point, the discussion simply becomes fighting over inane (egocentric) desires
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)