Christians - Why don't you just say it?
Offline One thing I can't stand about certain Christians is their inability to own up to a certain belief, specifically the belief about what happens to non-Christians on judgment day or when they die. I was raised in one of the very rare denominations that doesn't actually believe in hellfire (or even an immortal soul for that matter), but even then we believed some pretty nasty things would happen to nonbelievers (and even Christians in other denominations, who we called "false Christians" ).
But it seems like whenever I get involved in a conversation with a Christian who believes in hellfire, and I ask them if they think I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their God, very few of them actually say "yes." They'll hem and haw, and say things like "well, It's not up to me, it's up to God." This, to me, is bullshit cowardice and proof that deep down, they know that their belief system is a house of cards. They won't tell me that I'm going to hell because they KNOW how crazy it sounds, and they KNOW that I will lose respect for them if they say it.
But that is what they believe. If it isn't, then what the hell is their point? Why should I bother becoming a Christian with all the boring rituals, tithing, wasted time and energy when in the end it's just all up to this God person anyway? Look, they're right, if they tell me I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their God, I will lose respect for them...but I will respect them even less if they try to pretend they don't believe something they do, just to avoid saying something they know will counter their agenda.
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I find myself more and more lately looking beyond labels and trying to focus on the mundane human psychology that causes these irrational beliefs.
It really stems from our species flocking to and protecting that which is close and familiar. Countless species in life protect the family(club) and see outsiders as a threat to their existence.
Dawkins describes this evolutionary behavior quite well in "The God Delusion". I don't have the exact page. But he describes an alpha male bird in a group reacting violently to the help a subordinate bird offers to the alpha male.
This is an evolutionary trait our species has evolved to promote. You are going to hell, in their minds, not because an actual hell exists. They make claims like this because the reality that they are not special is something they don't want to face. Our evolutionary flaw is our refusal to accept our finite existence as a species. Falsely seeing ourselves as special does have a REAL benefit in driving us to get to the point of spawning the next generation.
These claims are merely REAL emotional reactions to a threat to our status.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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But, I believe that God reconciles all things to Himself in Christ - all things - not some things, not most things. Can the will of God be thwarted? It's my supposition that Hell is much more sparsely populated than most people assume.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
If God is supposed to be omnipotent, then by definition, his will cannot be thwarted. But then you run into the old omnipotence /free-will contradiction thing.
Hence all the meaningless word-play, as in your post, to try and reconcile religious belief with logic and actual known truth.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Interesting that you hold such a non-Biblical position.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
As I've written in another thread, JC:
But it's as wrong for me to assume your damnation as it is wrong for me to presume upon my salvation. There is no assurance of either one of these propositions.
The idea of individualistic salvation is a recent development among Christians. 1 Timothy finds Paul's assertion that God "desires all to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth." Can we really thwart the will of God? God's plan is not to rescue a religious elite from an otherwise botched creation but to restore all things in Christ. From St Paul's letter to the Ephesians, "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of opur trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to the purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." There's more like this in Colossians. To unite all things in him. To reconcile all things. Pretty universal.
Christians must desire that all be saved, for that, we believe is what God desires. If that is what we must desire, then we must hope that to be the case as well. We must intercede then as Abraham interceded or Sodom and as Moses interceded for Israel. The elect are elected not against others but for others. We are saved on behalf of all to be reconcilers, intercessors and mediators for all participating in the contiuing work of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men."
It's not non-Biblical.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
What I got from all that preachy crap is that you have absolutly no idea what will happen to anyone when they die (hell or heaven wize) but you should suppose atheists will go to hell and you will go to heaven because you desire it to be that way... That just reinforces what this thread is about. Please if you reply to this, don't preach.
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You cannot disprove the existance of God, but you also cannot disprove the existance of an all powerfull, incomprehesible, pink elephant that lives in the boot of my car.
Redemption through his blood? What the hell does that even mean? What a weird and freaky crock of shit.
The mighty lord of hosts is incapable of good old-fashioned forgiveness?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I'm fascinated by this, too. I've been wondering if religion is not an example of a broad normalcy bias. In the face of grave danger - such as those time we face death and personal extinction, humans cannot accept the truth and wind up clutching at a false single solution in order to maintain an implausible normalcy that does not exist. Studies show this bias is endemic in humans. In emergencies it causes us to fail to believe our senses and in 70 per cent of cases people will check with others before evacuating a disaster area. It makes sense that such a bias towards normalcy would lead us to believe that there could be life after death, that there is a heavenly father and that there is a master plan for our lives despite the fact the evidence for these things is completely to the contrary.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Then I must be a real serious threat to their status, cause I get a lot of that "hell" crap.
Ah well, I have somehow managed not to get into the whole “am I irrevocably damned?” thing with any theists. Which is not to say that I have not had more than my fair share of bullshit conversations. Just not that one in particular.
Interesting that you mention the “false christians”. One group that I was with back when I was doing the theist drug had that particular belief. Interestingly, one of the major issues that they had going was that catholics were among the false christians because they were clearly idol worshippers. The specific of that was the veneration of Mary mother of god.
Now I had enough bizarre conversations with them that I got out before I settled the idea of the RC church being false x-tians but there is a potential house of cards just in that one idea. I imagine that the conversation might be something along this line:
Me: So the catholics are not christians?
Pastor: Right, they are idolaters.
Me: So then christianity begins with the reformation about 400 years ago?
Pastor: No, we began with the savior 2,000 years ago.
Me: Um, OK. Then who were the christians during the first 1600 years of the church?
Pastor: Well, not much is known about the early church. ---> (BTW, this was often advanced as official doctrine to hide the house of cards.)
Me: Well, that hardly addresses my question now, does it?
Pastor: Well, read this verse from the OT. ---> (this pastor was a huge fan of directing me to a single verse from the OT and then slamming the bible shut before I could even see what book I was being told to read from, thus preventing me from getting the context of the verse.)
Me: The OT does not address my question.
Pastor: You have just read a prophecy. The inspired word of the Lord.
Me: OK, so it is prophecy, still, for the first thousand plus years, there was one church. You say that they were never christians. So christianity began much later.
Um yah, house of cards here.
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LMAO at the theist in this thread
Sorry for the preachin, Sam. LOL! It's just that JC asked for a biblical justification for my hope and I had to reply.
You're right in that I have very little idea what will happen after folks die. To assume that I am saved, that I am heaven bound and you are not is the sin of presumption. Note that while the Church canonizes saints, that is recognizes those who have led earthly lives of extraordinary virtue, she does not promote a canon of "anti-saints" who led lives of extraordinary dissipation and are damned. Such a concept is first a denial of the depths of the mercy of God and second a mere distraction to the work at hand.
You're wrong though that it is somehow my desire that I should be saved for my faith and you should be damned through your lack thereof. My hope is that all should be saved. As a result of that hope one of my most fervent prayers is for the mercy of God be bestowed on the whole world as He has promised.
Why, then, be saved? That's the question, isn't it? To be saved is to participate in God's plan of universal salvation. We, Christians, are not saved against the rest of humanity; rather, we are saved on behalf of all to be reconcilers, mediators, intercessors for all. We are saved to pray for our hope that all be saved. This we do out of the love we are commanded to have for all, just as Israel was saved to pray for, await, and bring about the Messiah for all nations; just as Abraham was saved to intercede for Sodom; just as Moses was chosen to interpose himself between God and the apostasy of Israel.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
That must suck, to believe in an afterlife and live in constant fear of winding up in the wrong one.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
This seems to be a prime example of what the OP is talking about.
Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Do you Christians if read your bible or do you just pick and choose what bible verses to believe and not believe?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I think many Christians in the back of their mind know how f*cked up some of their beliefs are. They try to sugar coat things and avoid certain parts of the Bible. It really depends what kinda person they are to begin with. The Bible is so varied that you can pick verses to express whatever you want. If you're pissed off, you can quote Jesus when he was pissed off. If you wanna be a warm and fuzzy Christian, you can pick out some verses like that.
Is there a Hell? Indeed. Could it be seething with the souls of a great massa damnata? Certainly. I could be quite wrong about all I have written here, but it would be contrary to the virtue of hope to believe so; it would be contrary to the virtue of love to not pray that it be otherwise.
I've read passages like those above in the Scriptures. I've read of separating sheep and goats. Taken at face value and by themselves such statements seem dire indeed, but it could be that such passages are admonitory, they are warning of what could be. So that when I read of the Good Shepherd; I read of Jesus' statement to the woman caught in adultery "neither do I condemn you" ; I read his words from the cross "Father, forgive them..." , "Today you will be with me in Paradise", my hope is rekindled. Even those who come late to work in the vineyard recieve the full day's wage.
Note too, that I do not make the claim that at the Judgement we are to get off scot free. There is still temporal punishment for sin after the judgement. But even should I find myself consigned to purgatory until the end of the age, I'll rejoice in knowing my hope was not in vain.
Still, even the longest confinement isn't as dire a punishment as execution, is it? And purgation isn't quite destruction. So, with that in mind, I contimue to work out my own salvation, like St Paul, in fear and trembling, all the while praying for the realization of my hope for the salvation of all. After all, "He who has hope lives differently."
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
It would be contrary to the virtue of love, to hope and pray for people's eternal damnation ?
OOPS! You're right. I got carried away. I meant quite the opposite. That it would be contrary to hope and love to embrace the idea of a massa damnata.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
Some of the hardcore ones will tell you to your face you are going to hell. But, I'm willing to bet those same one's could be found to be quite insane, or attention whores like the "crazy christian woman" on youtube. Dark sided, you are all dark sided!
The best example I have seen that shows both that people are sheep, and that they do realize something is wrong with the bible.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
I'm just trying to figure out why hell is such a bad thing...
I
Matt
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
subjected to these endless Bedouin metaphors? They coloured their story with the world around them but we are meant to believe they did not invent the other content, too? It's just pathetic.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Psh.
Why follow your own value judgments? Shouldn't you be following whatever the Bible says?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
If it was the only source of revelation, sure. I've stated nothing extra-biblical, however.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
I just found a urinal cake that looks like me!
I'M GOD!
Thank you, that is all...
*bows*
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)