The sun is a fast planet?

 

I thought Luminon didn't have the bio before the reading?

 

O, yea that is true, however, given only just the posts made by NoMoreCrazyPeople in the thread which this horoscope was set up, there is still enough information to conclude everything Luminon said about him.

 

Here are two descriptions that NMCP gave about himself in the thread this horoscope reading was set up. We know that Luminon has at least read these two statements because (shortly before writing this horoscope) he directly replied to the posts in which they were made.

 

 

 

I don't see anything that Luminon said that wasn't either completely speculative or something that follows from those two statements and a little bit of knowledge of American culture.

 

 

I'm letting everyone have a go before I say anything.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I study astrology, not data mining and postology. I don't know how to make a horoscope by not making it, but by reading what the people write. I read many people's posts, without bothering to make an opinion about them. Honestly, I didn't bother with cheating and reading previous NMCP's posts, it's not like my life would depend on it.

Also, the way how one presents or sees himself, may not be the whole truth about his personality. You should see me on the woo forums, I'm the voice of reason and doubt there. (yes, even woo needs reasoning)

My dad as a professional would put your in awe... But only you and your close family or friends, because other people don't know you so well. Similarly, I'm very curious what will NMCP say, he's the one who is most able to evaluate it.

My dad's astrologic school works with past lives quite a lot, some elements in horoscope (Lilith, Selena, Chiron, south node) are all about them. It's just how I was taught on lectures, most of people don't have problem to hypothetically consider it.

 

Well Luminon, I have offered to give you my relevant info a couple of times just to see what you can do. Thus far, you have not been willing to go for it.

 

 

Hell's bells, I even offered to pay your father $100.00 for a reading. I would have made good on the deal but you tried to turn it into something where he needed to cold read me.

 

If you can really do this then you can do this.

 

Tell me what data you need and I will provide it. I will PM Brian Sapient with whatever needs to be dealt with and he can decide what the outcome is. Or you can pick your own moderator. It will be your choice.

 

If you wish, I can get you past data mining accusations. I will talk to people whom I know and have one of them register here for the deal. You take what that person gives and you produce something worthwhile.

 

Are you willing to take that as a test of what you can do?

So how does astrology have anything to do with what your dad does then?  How is what he does woo, as opposed to just being a secular shrink?  What can he do that a secular person could not do?

 

I think most of us are under the assumption that when you say astrology, that means you can figure things out about a person simply by knowing their time and place of birth, rather than getting to know them first and matching known character traits to a list of stuff in an astrology book or program.  Are we wrong?

 

Astrology is a study of parallels between person's life and situation on the sky. It is mathemathically described by Kammerer's laws of seriality and causality. But horoscope does NOT determine the person. It symbolizes the Kammerer's influence of planets. Any person is very likely to be influenced by it, but not in one way. Many behavior patterns are the result.
The value of astrology is in the fact that it's a key to the problem, it shows the causes of a problem, solution for it, it's duration, it's historical significance, and so on. Nobody will guarantee that they will find a solution to your problems. But astrologer should, because the nature of aspect that gives you trouble is no secret for him, it's obviously displayed on the screen. If you provide your very precise data, of course, and if you say aloud what is your damn problem.
Plus, add to it all that common psychology can do, which is not much.

You greatly underestimate complexity of this technique. It's more than 12 psychological archetypes X 12 areas of life x 11+ planets x 12 aspects x 4 social levels x 3 modes of expression of a character trait. Someone said, that astrology is 64 times more complex than chess, and I agree.
And yet, astrology makes no righteous claim that it can reduce and simplify a living person on a list of traits from computer analysis. Horoscope is indivisibly related to a person born under it. It's a key to that particular person's problems and talents. My dad might have a key, but he needs the lock to open.

 

Hmm.  That doesn't seem very complex compared to the number of variables a trained psychologist would have to deal with.  I've read books on astrology and horoscopes before (big fat ones that put on scientific airs) and to me as a layperson their main charm seems to be ambiguity, where a given reading has so many options the reader can pick and choose between many options and always find something applicable to themselves.  I guess I'm just disappointed to lose my illusions about what astrology is.

I'm not seeing the utility I suppose.  I'd be interested to set up a study about problem resolution between some good secular doctors/shrinks and some good astrologers, but at this point I doubt astrology has enough credibility to generate sufficient interest for such a thing.

That would be interesting, if you think you can be objective about it.  I'd have a hard time analyzing my dad's beliefs in an objective way because I would rather respect him as a person and ignore his rational faults.  I would just assume hold on to the idea of father=hero for as long as I can.  But I'm sentimental.

What problems? He didn't tell me any, that was the purpose of double blind test.
People who don't understand astrology think, that it's a way of knowing everything, which isn't true. It's a way of interpreting everything.

The evidence is in positive change of client's life. For example, cure of health problems, positive change of behavior or knowing of problems ahead and being prepared for them, or revealing the problems retrospectively. Assuming that the client will really do what the astrologer says.

Of course, a gifted and experienced astrologer (with hundreds of clients) can guess a lot about the person if he has precise data, but still it's not how astrology should be used. Astrology is still very much in it's basics, simply because until now it had no access to modern science and technologies. Astrology already has theoretical scientific basis and it's in harmony with unified theory of the paranormal. But mainstream scientists have no idea on how it can work, which effectively turns their brains off when they hear the A-word. Local Skeptic's club proves it very well in their own documents. They can't even point out real, valid objections to astrology. They published 33 of objections, which are literally inane. Which is why they are unable to study it, either to prove or disprove. Local astrologic community laughs at them, but it's a sad laughter.

Generally, an astrologer needs to know the person's problems or specific questions about solutions to begin with, and then may ask some details from the client's life. AFAIK it's not necessary to know the person's whole life, only what matters.

As for your question, usefulness was not the purpose of test. Evaluating of usefulness is subjectively up to NMCP. What was done objectively, was if I can guess any real events from NMCP's life (biography) through horoscope.

 

You see, I got no information to begin with, so I got almost no information to end with. This is not how astrology should be used. People are sometimes clueless on how to solve their problematic personal situation. Astrologers analyze a symbolic representation of life factors (which also contains solution) and translate it to the language of client's personal situation. For that he of course must know the client's personal situation! Just like key can't open lock without a lock, or doctor can't make diagnosis and prescribe medicine without a patient.

In some cases an experienced professional astrologer can make a succesful guess. For example, a friend of my dad brought him a horoscope that had badly aspected Mars in Aries 2nd house. (or something like that) 2nd house is about self-value and values (money) in general, Aries is about emotions, and Mars is about action. Thanks to his experience of thousand clients he extrapolated a conclusion. This person is in great danger of being passionately addicted to gambling, and should never ever win anything, or he will become a gambler regardless of real finance counts.
Then he was told that the owner of horoscope is indeed a young man fascinated by casinos, thrill of winning money and gambling chance theories.

By the way, my dad's book is already prepared to print in USA. Is anyone interested? It has beautiful cover.
http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/introduction-to-aquarian-astrology/11028399

I correctly guessed the religional conflict with his family. He has there an opposition Gemini-Saggitarius, which is the axis of ideologies, like religional and academic, and their conflict. This constellation is very typical for atheists oppressed by religious surroundings.
In retrospection, I could also guess the loss of a sibling, because of God's finger pattern pointing at Mercury in Gemini. But God's finger is not displayed in basic settings of the software. Next time I'll be wiser.

It's really diffcult to guess the person's situations from astrologic influences, they don't compel, only impel. How the person will deal with them, that is a different problem altogether. Only sometimes the result is typical. For example, when in my puberty I had Neptune (the planet of hippies) going through my descendant in Aquarius, it was all like in the musical Hair, song Aquarius. I had long hair, smoked pot and grew ganja. And the Neptune was in a transit, not native. Really, these readings can't be done on distance.

By documentation you mean database of clients and their characteristics? With values of character marked in some sort of classifying system? Then I'm sorry to disappoint you. My dad is not a scientist. He does not have funds, people, equipment and time to do that sort of work which is demanded by academic community. He can't afford developing and maintaining such a database, which would anyway have only subjective value. This is not how my dad works.

Empirical research by definition may exist regardless of how it is recorded. My dad uses natural way of recording and processing the huge amount of data, which is using his brain. He has a high IQ, so it's not a problem. The data and observations are safe in his head and readily available for use. Nobody else can steal his discoveries. He also wrote another book (still in electronic form) and has basic notes for writing several another books. In his free time he writes down his research into these books in progress. But he has daily job and many other duties, including maintaining the household. He plans to write these books quickly when he will be in retirement. Making horoscopes is long and diffcult work anyway.

Not even you would be able to read through such a database anyway, you have better things to do. The method is such, that astrologer lets all the data be formulated into a simple set of principles that can be easily taken, understood and applied for verification. Nobody right in their mind will demand people to read through documentation of research that takes years and with hundreds of clients. Maybe only scientists that have too much time at work and too much funds from a generous donor.

Astrologic data are very diffcult to write down objectively, but also very obvious. For example, if my dad just had a 20th person with ascendant in Taurus, with very low self-esteem, then bingo! Taurus sign is all about values, wealth, the value of self and self-esteem. That is astrological principle. Another principle, that my dad invented, is that horoscope shows what you should learn, not what you are. Therefore, a person with such an emphasized Taurus will have to learn what the self-esteem is, because such a person will not know anything about it. These cases typically think they deserve to be treated like shit. Astrologer's job is therefore obvious, to point out how valuable they really are, and how their partner manipulates them to feel like shit and serve him forever. That is the nature of mishandled principle of Taurus sign, that the person must learn.

Now I don't know how well it fits into what Luminon is describing, but several tests of Astrology have been done by supplying Astrologers with profiles of different people and asking them to work out what their Astrological signs would most likely have been. They have never achieved more than chance scores.

 

I think I have answer. What I did for NMCP, was analysis of natal horoscope. This is not much about predictions. The part of astrology that is more about predictions is transit astrology. It is placing the natal horoscope over a horoscope of time which you want to predict. (or analyze retrospectively) Very typically, things like middle age crisis are reflected in this, because of Jupiter return on natal position or Saturn return. Square or opposition on natal position are important points in life. And any harmonic or disharmonic aspects on any other planets in the transit are important. But this is an advanced technique that I haven't done yet. It requires a lot of life experience, specially having experienced Saturn return on your own skin, to be able to say what you're talking about.

But still, the astrologic influence impels, not compels. It's up to the client how he will respond to the influence of a transit. There are some typical reactions (like middle age crisis) but the purpose of astrology is not to predict them. (that's automatical) The purpose is to anticipate them and work hard on yourself to pass through these trials positively and not negatively.
It's up to a person to make sure that a transit will be a learning and productive experience, not a harsh experience. It can save life and spare the person of degenerative diseases.

 

Yes, the results are consolidated in a place, and that place is my dad's head, this is where and how the statistics are classified. As I wrote, after 20th person with Taurus ascendant and low self-esteem it is OBVIOUS that it's related. The archetype of self-value isn't only Taurus, but also Venus and 2nd house, this is why we say that Venus is ruler of Taurus and is at home at 2nd house. There is no need for database or computer, all you need to observe that in practice is not being completely stupid. This is really the least problem in astrology, and it was solved a few thousand years ago. Now we only refine the concepts, from money and material wealth to how you value yourself, the self-esteem.

Secondly, taking records of a person would require very complex psychologic classifying system. Who would design it? Who would fill in the data objectively? Astrologer or client himself? Who would pay for the extra time and effort? None of this is needed for astrologic practice, this is what academic community wants. You see, this is what scientific funds and grants are good for. Give me a few millions of dollars and we'll see what can be done about that.

Nope... If this is what he would do, he'd get killed on nearest traffic lights. No, my dad uses scientific method. Let's see what is scientific method:

You see, there is nothing about papers, databases or numerical evaluation of client's psychologic traits. All this must be done, but by optional technical equipment. In this case, the equipment is my dad's brain, and it's a brilliant brain. It's capacity and performance is more than enough to perform the above mentioned scientific method and much more. He already had 1000+ clients and he performed the scientific method many times about more aspects of a horoscope that most astrologers do. He designed, investigated and succesfully verified many new concepts for astrology, for example life cycle revolution or new meaning of ascendant. He writes about it in his books, this is the phase of reporting results.

I'd never think I will have to explain it to someone else, but the beauty of scientific method is, that it's self-correcting. If the hypotheses don't apply on incoming tenths and hundreds of clients, then they get reformulated or rejected. And what is the ultimate test of truth? It's of course consistence of results with reality, but also the actual benefit that the client has. The goal is to help the client to lead a happy, productive and healthy life through correct adaptation to life's demands. My dad gets miserable human wrecks with terrible relationships, property affairs, bad health and no purpose of life, and tells them how to lead the good life. Then there are two choices: either the client follows the advice and lives well as my father predicts, or doesn't follow the advice and there is no betterment. We often hear from them, so we know what's happening with them. My dad's method and experience is so perfect, that he reliably helps people for years. The research now moved on to more theoretical fields. The astrology starts to develop quickly with help of general science and astronomy.

Because it was a compromise between my abilities, testability of the claims, and price of airplane tickets that would cost to take NMCP here for a proper reading.

No, I'm saying that it's sufficient. Capacity of human brain is enormous.

This is why my dad uses the scientific method, it's self-correcting. Confirmation bias would result in his theories not fitting on the clients.
Furthermore, writing things down wouldn't take 10 seconds, it would take hours, just as much as the horoscope takes. And there is no system yet designed that would fit academic demands. Designing it would be expensive, because it has to involve academic expertise. And nobody yet defined what kind of data exactly the database should have.

I doubt you can prove this claim. You don't know the complexity of a person's psychology, horoscope and state of life combined, in addition with actual reading just done. Writing this down would be a work for a few other well-paid people. Nope, brain, human memory, subconsciousness and intuition are great tools for managing such a great amount of information. Even you don't remember all your life experience consciously, you'd have to get crazy. Nope, you only recall a memory that you momentarily need, or just the gist of things.

Well, true, this is also why my dad doesn't keep written records, even during writing them there might be confirmation bias. He mainly works with the gist of theories formed through both logical mind and great intuition. And of course, there is the scientific method that is self-correcting. If what he says fits on people AND is their key to correcting their specific life problems, then it's true, either it's false. My dad is highly interested in helping people, because those who were helped attract more clients through recommendations.

If you required him to come to you for a "proper reading" before you could give him any information other than a restatement of what he had already told you combined with a couple of very obvious and ambiguous statements, why did you do the reading at all?

 

 

O.K. at this point I understand that all of your father's research is based on intuition and stored entirely in his head.

I guess the reason that it has taken me so long to accept this is that if I were in his position I could not imagine doing that. If I had the ability to make valid astrological readings, I would work as hard as possible/spend all the resources availabe to me trying to prove it. This is because once I uncovered sufficient evidence, I could present it to the rest of society, attracting millions of more clients, thousands of students wishing to learn from me, and huge amounts of money for research grants. I would open up a whole new field of science which would increase the scope and precision of astrology, I would gain wealth and notoriety, and I would help billions of people in the process.

 

Ahh, and I wasn't arguing with bob, just puttin the study in there because it surprised even me, which is why I asked lumi for the reading.  I haven't found any other studies on this guy.