The Bible - The inspired Word of God
Posted on: May 23, 2010 - 5:30pm
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The Bible - The inspired Word of God
I've been a Christian for 20 years and walk and talk with The Lord Jesus Christ. The church teaches that the Bible is the inspired word of God, flawless and without contradiction even though Jesus overturned many of the old testament teachings during His ministry.
What do you think? Is the Bible the inspired word of God? Is it perfect and flawless without contradiction? I will defend The Word Of God with great enthusiasm and I will glady answer any questions on so called Bible contradictions and be rest assured, Jesus Christ will still be Lord.
Carrier of The Word Of God
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That's nice, I've been an atheist for 30.
You can believe whatever you like about the bible. But the bible was and is strictly about a bunch of bronze age nomadic goat herders in the middle east.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
If the Bible is perfect, why doesn't it forbid rape and slavery? Or do you think it can be perfect without forbidding rape and slavery? Would I be a better person if I stood aside for rape and slavery?
If God is perfect, why are his creations imperfect? Do we not judge an artist by his art?
Why did he also not forbid torture, while declaring that even thinking of certain acts, which don't necessarily harm anyone, is a sin?
Why did he create parasitic worms whose life-cycle involves burrowing into the eyes of children and making them blind?
Why didn't the prophesies of the coming of the messiah mention his actual name?
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
But I'm sure you mean you walk around alone talking to yourself while imagining you're talking to god. I have these sorts of conversations with my dead father. It surprises me you're not prepared to admit they are a fabrication of your own mind. If you are not prepared to admit this, I can't imagine anything else you might have to say is going to make any sense at all. In any case it's obvious that the bible is not the inspired word of god. Let's take the gadarene swine. Not only is the act of casting demons into some one's herd of pigs an affront against natural laws, gadera in the year 33 was about 5 miles from the sea. Please explain how the pigs fell off a cliff for 5 miles horizontally.
While you're at it could you also give us a heads up on how noah built the world's largest ever wooden ship - a ship a full 100 feet longer than the next largest wooden ship in the history of the entire world. Explain why it has only one window 18 inches by 18 inches in size and outline, in your own words, how the methane from all those bovines was dispersed with no ventilation. How creatures we have not yet discovered today were gathered into the ark and then redistributed. How the lord handled the necessary variations in the hydrosphere, why jesus is ignored by all contemporary historians of his day, and why the lord did not insist adam and eve absolutely not eat from the tree of life when if they had, they would have become immortal gods like him and could have cheerily eaten from the tree of knowledge while flipping god the bird.
Then there's the prose. The bible is an awful book. Much of what god comes out with is banal and bizarre. At no time does he make any pronouncements in the sort of mighty style you'd expect from the master of the universe.
And Red, please don't use the word 'context'.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
The bible teaches that believers with faith such as yourself can perform miracles. Nothing will be impossible for you with enough faith. So where is the evidence that this is the case? What miracles do you perform? Why not just pray that all us heathens become bible thumpers tomorrow? Anything you ask in Jesus name will be done for you.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I think the Christian Bible was about a bunch of reformist, pacifistic Jews who tired of the violent, rapacious conflicts between peoples of their faith and The Greatest Civilization in Earth's History.
They achieved 'peace' by rendering a non-militant-yet-non-conformist attitude of 'yielding' before their oppressors, fulfilling every task demanded of them and politely reminding said oppressors that "We're not your enemy!"
Eventually, they corrupted the Caesars with their peaceful philosophy of charity and pseudocompassion at the same time as putting their ignorant, oppressive philosophy on a pedastal.
Naturally, the Roman Civilization collapsed with Christianity presiding over it's destruction!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Can you elaborate on this? Have you seen the lord Jesus? Have you spoken with him? What has he said?
Very interesting. What church do you belong to?
Ofcourse not!
Not even close!
Well let's get started "in the beginning" with Genesis 1, there it clearly describes god creating man and woman at the same time (equally). Genesis 2 clearly describes god creating woman (again but for the first time) after man, from man, for man (subserviant to men). These 2 passages are in clear contradiction:
As you can see it clearly states in Genesis 1 that man and woman were created at the same time, he even speaks to them both.
Lets now jump FORWARD in your bible to:
As you can see this verse clearly states later in the future that Eve was created post Adam, out of Adam, FOR Adam.
The first verse clearly shows your god had a plan for man a woman to have children and be fruitful. In the second verse he seems to have had no original plan for a woman.
Thats nice, so all you are saying to me is that human history hasn't changed. Humans once believed volcanos were gods and gods made lighting and the sun was a god. You simply have a currently popular super hero motif. But it too will die along with all deity claims when our species goes extinct because there will not be a future generation to sell these super hero motifs too.
When you say "I walk with the Lord" I see no difference than if you claimed your dog Sam was talking to you. But don't feel bad, most humans have a super hero or some sort of superstition. Lucky socks, 4 leaf clovers, god/s are nothing more than humans filling in the gaps with wishful thinking.
So if you came here expecting us to go "Isn't that nice" I think you might want to at least understand that is not what the people on this site do. We question, we knock claims around, and we are fair to everyone who comes here.
If that is what you want to believe, we cant stop you nor does it mean we hate you as an individual. But claiming something by itself is hardly impressive to us.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Ok a book that claims an adult human male magically popped out of dirt and that an adult woman magically popped out of his rib. Not to mention Jews don't believe Eve to be the first woman.
Not to mention that "Let us make them in our image" was found in the Canaanite Ugartic polytheistic text long before "Let me make them in my image" in the OT.
A book that puts the sun and moon as separate sources of light and seems to create them MORE THAN ONCE. Makes adult plants WITHOUT photosynthesis.
Not to mention the moral bankruptcy of blaming innocent people for committing a crime the god set them up to commit and knew they would commit when he didn't have to do it and then blames them for something they had no knowledge of or no way of knowing. And his master plan is to allow pain and suffering to all future generations because of crimes we didn't commit. Today, that would be like blaming me for slaves I wasn't around to own.
Thats just the start of the book. The end of it is all about glorifying god with an orgy of violence so that most people will end up in the trash heap and that only a select few of our 6 billion population get to spend eternity kissing the ass of a self centered monster.
I don't know how anyone can twist their brains to that degree to call such a myth good or moral, much less real.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Oh great, it's that english fella again.
You're going to preach at us ? Yikes.
Actually, contradictions are the least of it's problems.
Then why bother with the preaching ?
Anyone who can see the Bible as 'flawless and without contradiction' has drunk so deeply of the Kool-aid that they are likely beyond intelligent argument.
'Walking with and talking to Jesus' definitely fits the diagnosis....
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I agree with you about the goat herders, my money's on the carpenter
Yea, you put your money on a character, and a fictional one at that. Good luck with that bet. History is full of humans making bad bets.
An egg has one set of DNA and the claim of the bible is that Mary didn't do the matress mombo. Where did the second set of DNA come from? You do know an egg has to have a second set of DNA to manifest into a zygote, don't you?So what exactly constitutes godsperm and invisible DNA? "Poof" "God did it". Yea, magic is always a credible explination.
Then somehow your fictional super hero gets speared in the side. All the blood drains out of his body. All his organs fail and die, including his brain. But somehow, magically "poof" after 3 days and rigor mortis Jesus magically dances the jig via "God did it".
Did I mention I can fart a Lamborghini out of my ass? And the moon IS made of cheese and the earth is flat too.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I'm of the opinion that the "miracles" found in the NT could in fact be attributed to "ET" embodied in human form. ("imago dei", anyone?)
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
There is ONE thing you can rest assured on:
God has a whacky sense of humor!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Wow! Enthusiastic!
Hey guys! I was born without a brain... can I borrow yours? Help a bro out, y'all!
(God loves *ALL* his little children!)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I don't think Redsky really believes any of that shit. She's just pullin' our leg.
[lie]Actually, Redsky is just my sock puppet... [/lie]
But then... I don't know JACK SHIT about what's in the bible.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
What some strange ideas you have.
Take the gadarene swine. Gadarenes was the entire region and not just the city of Gadera. The region backed onto the east coast of the Sea of Gallilee so the pigs didn't have far to go to fall in.
God was the designer of the ark. He designed you so an ark was no problem.
Why didn't Adam and Eve eat from The Tree of Life? Ask yourself the same question. Why don't you eat from the tree of life? You have the opportunity
Carrier of The Word Of God
God never endorsed torture. Thinking sinful acts is not sinning. Actions can be sinful. When Jesus was talking of adultery he was addressing men in the crowd who were married.
He didn't create parasitic worms with the purpose of making children blind. In the same way, he didn't create crocodiles with the objective of biting off your legs. Jesus healed the blind he didn't give them an infestation.
The prophesies don't mention His name although His name does mean Lord with us who is mentioned many times in the OT.
Carrier of The Word Of God
Please do tell, why did he create parasites that have no way of surviving other than eating people's eyes?
Hang on a minute. I said The Church teaches that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I didn't say I did. I also said I would defend The Word Of God and you have wrongly assumed that to be the Bible.
Jesus is the Word from God and His words and His words only are the divine Word of God.
John Ch1: In the beginning was the word. The word was with God and the word was God. Etc etc. Then The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. So The Word is Jesus.
So what about everyone else?
Jesus makes it clear to the priests (God's so called representatives) that He and the Father are the same. He then tells them that they don't know the Father because they don't know Him and have no room for His words in their lives. This means that nobody who lived before Christ really knew what God was like and this is why He has been so badly misrepresented throughout history.
We've written a short and free ebook about it called Blasphemy and Identity. You can download it here:
http://www.redskynews.com/books/identitya5.pdf
Carrier of The Word Of God
Do you actually talk with Jesus, like you talk with another person? If so, it might be cause for concern. And which church?
The Bible is definitely a book. Of that, I can be sure.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I'm convinced she's messin around.
I think most here will agree with you that the Bible is not the word of God. The words of Jesus are relatively few. So we're getting close to an agreement here. We just have to convince you that the words of Jesus aren't the word of God either.
What do you mean when you say the Bible isn't the inspired word of God except for the words of Jesus? Do you mean that the rest of it could be false?
This isn't the inspired word of God, because it isn't the word of Jesus, right? So how do you know this part is true? Isn't this just a man speculating?
edit: wait a minute! The name of this thread is "The Bible - the inspired word of God"! I've been made a fool! Arrr!
Torture is not specifically endorsed, and that was not my question. Many narratives in the OT tell of horrendous actions against conquered peoples, indiscriminately, specifically including the women and children, and in the absence of actual condemnation from God of such actions, it effectively does endorse it, as near as makes no matter.
It is also apparently OK to punish your servant within an inch of his life, as long as he doesn't actually die.
It appears that it is only actual deliberate killing of members of your own tribe or family that is condemned, as is supported by the absence of any sanction against deliberate infliction of severe pain in the Ten Commandments or elsewhere, and the inclusion of 'thought crimes' such as 'coveting' your neighbour's wife, which shows a totally warped sense of 'morality'.
I put the bit in 1 John 3 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." in the same light. Whoever said that is fucked up, and deserved to be crucified
I wouldn't want to talk to him, apart from telling him what a benighted fuckwit he was.
I didn't say the parasites were deliberately placed here with that purpose, but that is a technical legalistic dodge. It was not necessary to create life-forms with those needs, knowing that allowing then to live in a place where they would have access to children would inevitably lead to those results.
They did not give the Messiah a non-generic name, which would have mode it more worthy of calling a prophecy. In any case, if the 'prophecy' was known by people at the time, many would clearly be looking for soemone who could be seen to vaguely fit, it was al but inevitable that they would eventually find someone.
The fact that the best response you can make to those questions is series of lame dodges is pretty much what I expected, and shows you up for the deluded fool you are. Thank you for proving my point.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
This is Jesus endorsing the old testament. So in defending Jesus you have to defend the old Testament and all of its laws, including the slavery, stoning etc
I Am My God
The absence of evidence IS evidence of absence
Which one of these looks like ADAM and EVE the most? (*And*!)
How do I offer a marriage proposal with the girl in the tree?
Yes, I do mean the "fallen angel serpent"!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
You are talking a crock of total shit. Why argue here at all? God can do anything including casting demons into swine, allowing a handful of people to build and fill an unlikely ark. There's no point talking to you. Godunnit - that's the core of your belief. A god you cannot define and have never met yet who you insist is capable of doing anything you decide he is capable of doing. You are a nutbag who chooses to believe impossible tales from the past in order to avoid facing your fear of dying. But die you will and god will not be there to save you. As for god 'designing' me, give me a break. I am a modified bacterial colony, the product of billions of years of interaction between organic life and the changing terrestrial environment and so, monkey child, are you.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Somebody's been IM'ed back to "an undergoudn bunker" in Philly!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Hello,
As I read through this thread I was glad to learn that it appears most will agree that the Bible is a book. It is a historical book, and a very old book. Over the years there have been many criticisms levied against the Bible regarding its historical reliability. And it is fair criticism in my opinion. Science is the study of things observed. I think I can vouch for everyone here that we were not around "In the beginning" or at any other timeframe mentioned.
Yes, there are significant portions of Scripture that lack an evidence observed; however, there are portions of Scripture that have an outside witness through the testimony gained through archeology itself or humans such as Clement (1st & 2nd), Polycarp, Ignatius, Marcus Aurelius, Tertullian, Eusebius, Jerome, and others. I think that we can all agree that the Bible is also a "believed" record of two faith systems (Judaism & Christianity), and there is 'some' acknowledgement from a third (Islam).
I would certainly like to continue this discussion; however, I would like to keep the discussion in a 'scholarly' environment, meaning that I'd like to discuss issues without 'attack' and 'ridicule'. I'll accept that most, if not all, believe that the Bible is guilty until proven innocent. If this were any other book, most would have 'read' it from cover to cover - have you? Also, there are many versions, I would like to stay within the boundaries of the "New American Standard Bible (NASB)", as it is the most 'literal' interpretation. That doesn't mean I will not accept discussion of manuscripts such as the Septuagint, etc. However, if we're going to cite Scripture I would like to stay within the boundary of the NASB.
Willing?
Thanks!
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Jesus didn't overturn OT teachings. You can thank Paul, the true creator of Christianity, for that.
The big question is whether your little golden book is able.
More about, Hesed. The portions of scripture that truly have a contemporary outside witness. None of these are contemporary and speak directly about jesus. Eusebius is third century. All we can say about him is he was a forger for the lord.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
To my knowledge, which I shall admit isn't inexhaustable, the best replies I can provide are:
1) A finding of an edict by Emperor Tiberitus (14-37AD) or Claudius (41-54AD) that was decreed not long after the resurrection that was against 'grave robbing.' An inscription of the edict was found in Nazareth (by Wilhelm Fröhner or Guillaume Frœhner) and charged those found robbing graves with captial punishment. This inscription can supposedly be found at the Bibliothèque nationale in Paris, France. Can the 'empty tomb of Jesus Christ' be the reason for the edict? I can't honestly say; however, I think it would be a safe assumption (with no evidence) to say that something radical happened for this edict of captial punishment to be issued. It could have very well been Roman concern over graves of high official- I'm not sure. You have any light to shed on that?
2) Along with that, The oldest piece of Christian Pilate literature seems to be 'The Report of Pilate to the Emperor Claudius', which is inserted in Greek into the late Acts of Peter and Paul and is given in Latin translation as an appendix of the Evangelium Nicodemi. It is probable that this report is identical with that mentioned by Tertullian. If that is true, it must have been composed before the year 197 A.D., the time of Tertullian's Apologeticum." Of the Jewish resources--Josephus and the Rabbinical writings (e.g. Talmud, Midrash)--BOTH make clear references to the existence of Jesus.
3) Of the Jewish resources--Josephus and the Rabbinical writings (e.g. Talmud, Midrash)--BOTH make clear references to the existence of Jesus. Josephus mentions Jesus in his work "The Antiquities of the Jews". Then there are the four Gospel writers and the Apostle Paul.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
1. Are you insinuating that the tomb of Jesus was the only one that had the potential of being robbed? Perhaps there was simply a rash of grave robberies.
2. That report has a date range 0f AD 150-255. The Acts of Peter and Paul were 4th century.
3. You mean the interpolation that was placed in Josephus work by a Christian after Josephus wrote it? The Gospels were written after Paul completed his works so it is unsurprising that they mentioned Paul's creation (the Gospel writers had Paul's works in front of them as they wrote).. As for the Rabinical writings - how many Yahshua's were there? You act as though it is an uncommon name.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Jesus didn't endorse theOld Testament as it didn't exist until 350 years after His ascension. He did endorse the law ( The Ten Commandments) and also the prophecies about Himself but that's all. He did also mention Abraham, Noah and Jonah.
In Jesus' day, the pentateuch existed with the priests thought was Holy and various scrolls mainly the Prophets.
Carrier of The Word Of God
He didn't endorse the OT, just the books that comprised it? Are you mental? How could he endorse the prophecies about himself when he didn't know he fulfilled them? The Gospels didn't "prove" he fulfilled them until after Paul had created his version of Christ (the one you worship).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
You are one of those cafeteria Christians who cherry picks which parts of the Bible to believe and which parts to throw out the window. Do you know what they do to fake Christians in Hell?
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
Yeah I do know! And do you know what they do to mindless rednecks??
Mark 16:16 (King James Version)
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
No...I said, "I can't honestly say" in response to what I wrote, "Can the 'empty tomb of Jesus Christ' be the reason for the edict?". As you said, "Perhaps there was simply a rash of grave robberies." Both are plausible.
In regard to the report, yes, I am aware of that criticism as well as others against other sources. I was simply putting down the best reply I have for 'contemporary' witnesses in response to atheistextremist.
No, Yeshua' is not an uncommon name. It was not my intention to lead anyone to believe that it was. The Hebrew Bible mentions several individuals with this name. This name is a feature of biblical books written in the post-Exilic period (Ezra, Nehemiah, and Chronicles) and was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. When I refer to Yeshua I refer to the one claimed as ha'Mashiach.
The most intriguing reference to me is the New Testament.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Don't feed the trolls.
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
One thing I have always struggled with is the application of the historical method to the existence of the son of god. It's true that if the new testament was talking about Centurion Gluteus Maximus and his boring life we'd have no problem with it being true. There'd be the 'eyewitness' accounts by a couple of different NT authors and that would be enough for us to say - yeah look. Gluteus was a real person.
Trouble is, the NT includes miracles, shattering claims of divinity as well as professing to include (word for word) conversations jesus had with Satan (and god) while alone. Then there are virgins giving birth, comets standing still, metamorphic water and sandal surfing on the shore break of Lake Galilee. On the strength of these things - claims that are unproven and unprovable, the NT is a dubious and mythical source, despite its great antiquity. The sources of the NT couldn't be called independent by any means. And there are sources discounted by the Council of Nicaea which amplify the dubious nature of the material even further yet they've been excluded.
My personal take on the paragraph in Josephus, who as we know, was not a contemporary of Jesus, is that it was inserted by Eusebius, the church historian, who was a senior churchman in Judea in the early-mid 300s. Eusebius encouraged falsification for the faith, and the first mention of this passage is in his personal copy of the Jewish Wars. Moreover, Josephus was a practicing Jew and a form of words that includes this: "If it be right to call him a man, for he was the christ" could only be written by a serious christian. After 'writing' about jesus does Josephus rush about the country as a christian? He does not. In addition, the form of words includes the entire christian doctrine in about 2 sentences. Likelihood, zero.
A forgery like this so long ago suggests to me there was no strong proof at the time. If there had been, the lie would have been utterly superfluous. Josephus works against christianity, not for it.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I understand you completely. I would like to put a wee 'control' on this discussion - I would like limit our responses to topics and the topic I would like to begin with actually starts in the Hebrew Bible in the book of beginnings: Genesis. However, before we start I need to know if you assign the same skepticism about the OT as you have mentioned here with the NT in regard to Jesus Christ. The Hebrew Bible, too, is a religious book embraced by Judaism as well as Christianity. If we throw out both - there isn't much to talk about imo <smile>. I'd like to view these books at face value.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
And I'm sure that there were a few Yeshuas that claimed to be Messiah. Messiah does not imply divinity. That came from the Christianity that Paul built.
Why does the NT intrigue you? It would have pissed Jesus of Nazareth off.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
It is rare when one man dies for another, and when they do they have a very good reason (Acts 7).
It depends which parts you are talking about, Hesed. There's the Jewish history and there's the Babylonian flood mythology and the private discussion with bushfires and roiling fogs. It's not easy to unravel which is real and which is fable. There's also the golden calf. Who would believe the Jews couldn't be left alone at a BBQ without melting down the tableware in order to worship livestock? Today 3000-odd years later their interest in such creatures remains purely culinary.
No doubt this story reflects a priesthood cross at having to compete with the local pantheon but it's irritating to have to read about it.
In any case, I'm happy to talk more about this. It's always instructive, one way or another. Genesis is a dangerous place to start a rational discussion, of course. Face value, when it comes to the vagaries of religion and history is a many faceted thing.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
If I could save the lives of every person on the planet for all time with my own death I'd go ahead and die. So would you. This self sacrifice is a reflection of human values. It has nothing to do with the likely actions of a universe creating deity.
God can't die in any case, so there's no great merit in his pretending that he did.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck