Minimization in search of a kernel of truth
Offline Minimization in search of a kernel of truth
by Matt Giwer, © 2010 [June]
One of the dumbest tricks of bible believers is to pretend they can take
away the magic and miracles and find the kernel of truth in the stories. It
is true one can take away the magic and miracles from The Wizard of Oz but
what is left is not the real Oz any more than one is left with a real
biblical Israel.
Lets get one thing straight first. The subject is biblical Israel. That
means the Israel as described in the bible. If an Israel as described in the
bible did not exist then there was no biblical Israel. This is elementary
semantics. If believers want to substitute something else for biblical
Israel fine but let them say exactly what it is but never suggest it is the
Israel described in the bible. In the US we call it bait and switch to try
to substitute a hilltop warlord for the biblical King Solomon. It is
disreputable to do that.
Lets start with a common example popularized by Israel Finkelstein who says
he is a biblical archaeologist and who is therefore not a real
archaeologist. He is the most quoted as saying to the effect, 'if Solomon
existed he was no more than a hilltop warlord.' I have come across nothing
from him attempting to dispel the false impression this leaves.
A more correct statement would be, 'if Solomon existed and there is NO
evidence he did exist then he was no more than a local leader.' The emphasis
on NO evidence is because believers take away from the statement that
Solomon did exist. The second is changing the warlord to something more
reasonable simply a local tribal elder rather than an impressive warlord.
Let us look at the Judaism expressed in the OT stories. It is no more than a
ritual/taboo culture which practices genital mutilation -- also called
circumcision. The entire Yahweh worship is spelled out over and over as a
quid pro quo. It requires obedience to the rituals and taboos and the
circumcision in exchange for the land. It is as simple as that. There are no
required beliefs. There is no doctrine. There is no theology.
So if Solomon is reduced to the head of a hilltop tribe what people would
put up with giving up pork much less tolerate circumcision for a crumby
hilltop? They could certainly have gotten a better deal from another god.
And if this were the case they were clearly not telling stories about the
elder ruling from the Nile to the Euphrates unless they were ridiculing an
old guy bereft of his sanity by senility. And if they were people claiming
to imagine a kernel of truth look even dumber.
Another god? There is no pretension any place in the stories that Yahweh is
other than a tribal deity, one among many, and no different from the other
gods. Were there not other gods there would be nothing for this Yahweh to be
jealous of. It might be pissed at the stupidity but not really giving a
damn. That same applies to Christians. They do not behave as though there is
only one god. Nor do Christians or Jews proclaim monotheism until after
Islam. Oddly Islam officially declares there is only one god but then
prohibits worshiping gods which do not exist. It appears Mohamed's
conviction about there being only one god was not very firm.
Therefore the Red Sea parted
Another amusingly stupid thing believers do is imagine some vague
relationship between a known fact of history and a bible story and then
solely because of this vague relationship declare it is all true. This poor
substitute for reason goes like this. Names containing the word Moses were
common in ancient Egypt therefore the Red Sea parted.
This sort of thing is meaningless because anyone creating a story any time
after the use of the word Moses in names is known can create a story using a
character named Moses. People can do it today as could people in the 2nd c.
BC have done it. The use of the name says nothing about the events
themselves.
As a concrete example, there is credible historical mention of Samaria and a
king Omri. There is nothing connecting him to Judea or Jerusalem. The
details of the mention contradict the Septuagint story. For example, Omri
and his people are not taken to Babylon in the historical mention. And as
there is nothing else supporting any captivity in Babylon we look at this
historical information as the inspiration for one of the Septuagint stories.
The stories it inspires are Bel and the Dragon and Daniel. Bel and the
Dragon has so much magic in it that it has not been adopted as canonical by
anyone although it has some of the more famous stories such as the fiery
furnace. Daniel itself can be clearly dated by when the prophecies change
from all correct to all wrong. They start going all wrong in the mid 2nd c.
BC so that is when it was written. It really is all as simple as this.
You just hate Jews
This is one of the most desperate accusations to try to salvage something
from the old testament mythologies. I may hate Jews but I hate Atlanteans
even more as I consider Atlantis even more absurd. In fact most Jews hate
Atlanteans for refusing to believe in Atlantis.
Belief as opposed to knowledge is the point here. One can know only what is
in evidence. People who claim to know by non-physical means are fools. We
only know the physical evidence found in Palestine and nothing more. Reason
that is not grounded in physical evidence is no more than mental
masturbation.
And what we know about the physical evidence is different from what we
surmise or conclude from the physical evidence. Believers, the frauds who
call themselves biblical archaeologists, do their best to argue the physical
evidence into the context of the Septuagint stories. That is dishonest. To
repeat, no one knows the who, what, when, any why of the origin of these
stories. We can only estimate, bracket and make educated guesses based upon
what we know from physical evidence.
But you keep picking on Jews
There might have been a basis for that when I was growing up in the 1950s.
But since the mid 1970s or so the Judeo-Christian heresy has become common
and is in fact proclaimed by political and social leaders. We now have a
Judeo-Christian culture and heritage and values and ideals and related
nonsense.
So as our culture is now joint and several Jewish and Christian and
attacking one part is like attacking the whole. An attack on Jesus is the
same as an attack on Moses and vice versa -- else we do not have a
Judeo-Christian anything. When the jewish attacks on Jesus cease there will
be a basis for a truce but not before.
Judeo-Christian is a Christian heresy in that the traditional theology is
that Christianity totally replaced Judaism. Nothing has changed in the
theology but rather people simply talking different. Nor am I particular fan
of theology other than as a mental exercise. It is a Socratic exercise based
upon a preferred selection of principles upon which to base the reasoning.
And that selection is based often based upon heavily biased and false
translations. And there are a host of other problems. But melding
ritual/taboo Judaism with Christianity has always been a heresy and has been
condemned in many forms over the centuries. Not that I really care.
Bottom line?
There is no way to put lipstick on either blood sacrifice or a pig. The
entire kernel of truth is a fantasy without regard to any physical evidence
whatsoever. Taking away the most ridiculous bits and pieces until there is
something left which appears plausible, which does not cause embarrassed
giggling, does not mean what is left is other than fantasy. The idea that it
is all true but the silly parts is a sad, desperate and ultimately pathetic
attempt to pull faith from the jaws of reason. The silly things become more
numerous every year.
In the real world in ancient times the few remaining temples of the ancient
world were different. They all had stocks of animals to kill as sacrifice
just as are described in the Septuagint stories for the temple of the Yahweh
cult. As with that temple so also the Acropolis. As with the Acropolis so
also all the temples of all the gods of the western world when the
Septuagint stories were written.
There is no difference between this Yahweh cult and the cult of any other
god in the ancient world in its worship practices as they all required blood
sacrifice. There are no significant differences. One would expect if this
Yahweh were in some way unique one would read evidence of it. In fact there
are no significant differences. This is not a theological point. It is an
observation that the authors of the stories did not intend to say there were
any differences.
So why is there a problem with observing these facts? Is it any different
from those who try to explain away the similarity? And why attack me for
putting the obvious into words?
There are some who cannot go to sleep without checking the closets and under
their beds for Nazis. I can assure them that even if I were not a
libertarian I am neither in their closets nor under their beds.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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I have one admittedly minor nit to pick. If you are a nomadic tribe in a arid or semi-arid climate, there are rational reasons for not eating pork.
1. Pigs, hogs, boars are omnivores and eat the exact same diet as humans. This means in an area of scare resources, pigs and humans are in direct competition.
2. Since they have the same diet, there are many diseases and parasites they can share with humans. Pigs are excellent lab animals for testing human products as their metabolism is so similar. The nomads may not have understood germ theory, but they probably understood how the tribe down the valley was always sick and they had pigs.
3. Pigs - not only boars - are dangerous. The stories about the grandchild being eaten by grandpa's pig herd are not urban legends. Occasionally, grandpa gets eaten as well. A goat may knock you down and stomp you to death, but it doesn't then eat you. A pig will. Which puts a flavor of cannibalism on the whole subject.
A family nomadic clan in an arid region had plenty of reasons to avoid pork even without the religious prohibition.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I don't like the fact that you are "antijude", in so many words.
Hebrew individuals have lived in "Eretz Yisrael" LONG BEFORE there was a "Palestine". (Unless you count Philistine
)
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
In the mid-5th c. BC the Greek Herodotus traveled in the Persian Empire and wrote his Histories on what he found. Although his view of what constitutes history is his own and his anecdotes are the kind travelers have always sought to entertain when they return home he did use the names of people and places he encountered or learned of along the way.
Below I give the seven mentions of the land of Palestine by that name, Palestine and of the Syrians who live there. You will notice there is no mention of any Phillistines. You will also note there is no mention of any Judaeans even on his list of those who circumcize.
As you should know there is archaeological evidence of any Hebrews or of a kingdom of Israel. Those are only found in the entertaining septuagint tales of magic. So also from surviving inscriptions there is no biblical Israel nor Judaeans aka Jews. Judaeans and Judea first appear in history in the 1st c. BC and can be credibly extended to the successful imposition of the Yahweh cult upon Jerusalem and its immediate environs by Judah Maccabe in the mid-2nd c. BC.
Absent physical evidence of this Israel and Judaeans no rational person would think they are other than the creation of those who invented the Septuagint. The Septuagint is also known as the Old Testament by Christians but there is no evidence of any version of these stories older than the Greek Septuagint therefore the original of these stories were in Greek absent physical evidence to the contrary.
I hope this clears up the confusion and misapprehensions on your part. You should also read my other post On the Origin of the Yahweh Cult for a more detailed exposition.
105. Thence they went on to invade Egypt; and when they were in Syria which
is called Palestine, Psammetichos king of Egypt met them; and by gifts and
entreaties he turned them from their purpose, so that they should not
advance any further: and as they retreated, when they came to the city of
Ascalon in Syria, most of the Scythians passed through without doing any
damage, but a few of them who had stayed behind plundered the temple of
Aphrodite Urania.
That this was so I conjectured myself not only because they are dark-skinned
and have curly hair (this of itself amounts to nothing, for there are other
races which are so), but also still more because the Colchians, Egyptians,
and Ethiopians alone of all the races of men have practised circumcision
from the first. The Phenicians and the Syrians[88] who dwell in Palestine
confess themselves that they have learnt it from the Egyptians, and the
Syrians[89] about the river Thermodon and the river Parthenios, and the
Macronians, who are their neighbours, say that they have learnt it lately
from the Colchians.
106. The pillars which Sesostris of Egypt set up in the various countries
are for the most part no longer to be seen extant; but in Syria Palestine I
myself saw them existing with the inscription upon them which I have
mentioned and the emblem.
5. Now by this way only is there a known entrance to Egypt: for from
Phenicia to the borders of the city of Cadytis belongs to the Syrians[4] who
are called of Palestine, and from Cadytis, which is a city I suppose not
much less than Sardis, from this city the trading stations on the sea coast
as far as the city of Ienysos belong to the king of Arabia, and then from
Ienysos again the country belongs to the Syrians as far as the Serbonian
lake, along the side of which Mount Casion extends towards the Sea.
91. From that division which begins with the city of Posideion, founded by
Amphilochos the son of Amphiaraos on the borders of the Kilikians and the
Syrians, and extends as far as Egypt, not including the territory of the
Arabians (for this was free from payment), the amount was three hundred and
fifty talents; and in this division are the whole of Phenicia and Syria
which is called Palestine and Cyprus: this is the fifth division.
Now in the line stretching to Phenicia from the land of the Persians the
land is broad and the space abundant, but after Phenicia this peninsula goes
by the shore of our Sea along Palestine, Syria, and Egypt, where it ends;
and in it there are three nations only.
89. Of the triremes the number proved to be one thousand two hundred
and seven, and these were they who furnished them:--the Phenicians,
together with the Syrians[82] who dwell in Palestine furnished three
hundred; and they were equipped thus, that is to say, they had about
their heads leathern caps made very nearly in the Hellenic fashion,
and they wore corslets of linen, and had shields without rims and
javelins. These Phenicians dwelt in ancient time, as they themselves
report, upon the Erythraian Sea, and thence they passed over and dwell
in the country along the sea coast of Syria; and this part of Syria
and all as far as Egypt is called Palestine.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
The problem with that approach is the folks who did eat pork never noticed any disease connection nor today, looking back at their descriptions of disease, can we discern any which are related to pigs. It not credible that one group could observe a connection between disease and pigs which did not exist.
It is also part of the "minimization" rationalization to assert the "judeans" were "really" nomads who settled down. Needless to say there is zero evidence for such a rationalization. There is no kernal of truth there.
The Yahweh cult appears at a reasonably well understood time with a mythology traceable back to the Septuagint but no further and certainly not to prior version of the stories in another language.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Then I guess Zionists like POV-editting wikipedia (Can't say I'm surprised)
Srsly... What if all Jews converted tomorrow, and changed their nation's name from "Israel" to "Zion"... would they still have "stolen" the land? Even followers of moses can convert... so I guess... *WHO* stole the land?
Illegal immigrants?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Matter of fact I was banned for simply including the statement that Herodotus first mentioned the Palestinians in the 5th c. BC but not any Judeans. There is a group that has hard on for religion. However I do not get excited by anonymous sources creating a reference for high school students who are not supposed to know anything more than what is commonly believed.
The rights of the Palestinians to their private property in Palestine are the same as Israel champions for Jews in Germany and Poland because of WWII. The standard of justice is the same for both. There is no question Israel used the color of law to steal their property. They were declared absentee owners and because they remained absent the government confiscated their property. When we take into account any owner who attempted to return to his property was murdered by Jews, often forced to dig their own graves, it is clear justice is not on the side of the thieving, murdering Jews.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I personally wish they would cease settling the West Bank (Walling in entire cities included). But that's just me.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Stopping all the squattertown construction and frog marching the criminal squatters back to Israel would be a good start. The criminal occupation has to end and that includes East Jerusalem and Syria/ All intervention in the local government has to cease including all control of all borders. This would be a minimum before agreeing to treat the Palestinian refugees as they demand to be treated by Europe because of WWII.
It took over a decade of de-nazification to drive home to Germans just what they had done. It will take at least as long to de-zionize the Jews so they can grasp the magnitude of their crimes.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)