So what else is new?

Simple reference to the motto "Gott mit uns" on the belt-buckles of Hitler's SS, seeming to contradict the "Hitler was an Atheist" crap we get.

So? Are we supposed to read deep an take some kind of allegorical lesson from that?

This is not news to most of us. But it does show how short term history's memory is. Many in the west don't remember this, especially those younger than the WW2 generation.

BUT it does need to get out, so when you read an opinion or blog or post anywhere on the net when people bring up fascism and Hitler as examples of atheists, bring this up. Telling us here is preaching to the chior.

It is important however when you show this fallacy to make the argument about "obey athority" and "worship" the issue.

Fascism is not about believing or not believing, Iran is a fascist state and a theocracy. Fascism is absolute rule by one party or one person. God has the same thing in common, it is the worship of absolute authority. One is worship of a god the other is the worship of the state, but both are nothing but blind appeal to authority.

Secular nations are not "godless". Secular is a concept that protects pluralism through the checks and balances of questioning and the ability to disagree and dissent. Secular is not the promotion of fascism, it is the concept of protecting government from monopolies of power by maintaining neutrality on issues of religion and speech.

No atheist I know that has grown up in a pluralistic society would have anything in common with the Nazis or Stalin. Saying all atheists love Hitler would be like saying all Catholics molest kids. Thats like saying all men with Mustaches love Hitler.

Fascism is neither religious or godless and can manifest in any culture at any period of time. Fascism is when one power, be it a person or party OR religion, takes absolute power over all others and wipes out any dissent.

The group currently running Iran are giving us a pretty good example of how religion can drive toward a fascist state.

For those looking for Nazi talk...Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtlOBa6qa3o&feature=related

There was actually a time, before GB went to Fox, that he was able to report the conservative viewpoint responsibly... Then he had a breakdown, and then he was hired by Fox... Before That, he was a "Shock Jock"...and while on the air actually called the wife of a competing DJ who had just had a miscarriage, and asked if her husband could do anything right? (which,IMHO is actually kind of funny)...

The thing about Beck... Not from a content perspective, but simply from a "performers" perspective, is that guy is mezmerizing... I feel compelled to stop whenever I am turning the channel just to hear what inane rant this psychopath is on at the time...his "Chops" are amazing... Granted, like all of these Tv show pontiffs, he has a writing staff and a teleprompter... but as someone who has his own talk show, I recognize the guys talent... (and his manic perfidy) 

The statement on the belt buckle is not a proclamation of Christian faith. Hitler was not a member of the body of Christ. A trivial analysis of the evidence would clear that up, but instead many lie to themselves in order to self justify their anti Christian bigotries. 

Isa 5:20

(20)  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

He certainly was no atheist either. 

Bigotries are self perpetuating. Those who invest in them are irreconcilable to reason.

Own goal !

Mat 24:24
(24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1Jn 2:18
(18)  Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
 

Oh dear, I came to another conclusion than you did. Does that make me a dishonest observer or just better informed ? Gosh, what fun.

So what was he then ? Cause I'm guessing you figure he was lying when he said this : "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter"

"even now" ? Oh, so it's been and gone ? Okay, so much for that then.

"great signs and wonders", "even the elect" ? So much for christ then too.

Who's side are you arguing for again ?

Asking if Hitler lied is absurd. Hitler lied. He lived a life of lies and deceit. Him and his minions trafficked in lies.

What was he? It is clear form this verse what he was.

Joh 8:44

(44)  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

I started a fight. Woo-hoo.

What Michael hath wrought, let no man put asunder.

It's a hitler thread, Mike. They always get like this

lol @ picking through totally different books of a bible to haphazzardly describe a single individual. Let me pull out Tolkien and pick through some passages there, I could probably come up with better and more descriptive lines.

Unless you believe Hitler was a man of integrity and never told a lie, I do not think it is too far fetched to believe that he was an atheist. 

Here are some quotes from his hidden conversations ("Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published in 1953):

http://www.answers.org/history/hitquote.html

Those quotes were from Adolf Hitler. 

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Table-Talk-Adolf-Hitler/dp/1929631057/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278379931&sr=8-1

Here is a startling account of Hitler freely talking about his enemies, his friends, his ambitions, his failures, his secret dreams voicing his thoughts to his intimate associates as the sun set at the end of each day of the war. We see here a conversational Hitler letting down his guard to his trusted henchmen. Miraculously, Martin Bormann persuaded Hitler to let these talks be taken down by a team of specially picked shorthand writers. Hitler had intended, after his famous tyranny, to use these notes as source material for the books he planned to write about the glory of the Thousand-Year Reich.

You will no doubt cite something such as this to refute me:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Rest assured, I'm aware of the controversy.

I did read the rest of your post and if you wish to ask the moderators to take down this thread, then you are free to do so.  Until then, the topic is whether or not we have sufficient reason to believe that Hitler was a Christian (at least that is what the topic is implicitly, why else did the OP mention Hitler's belt buckle?)

Here is a link to a point by point refutation to Jim Walker's site, which is probably the main source you are relying on here:

http://www.bedfordgaol.com/walkersite.html

The usual not-a-real-christian stuff.

Btw, that guy spends an awful lot of time making the point that Hitler was nothing like Jesus. Which is a bit weird.

Anyway, I have no idea who Jim Walker is, so I only have mein kampf to go on. Like i said, since he turned out to be quite serious about his anti-semitism, what reason do I have to assume he was lying about his faith ?

If you were truly going on Mein Kampf, then you would have great reason to assume that he is lying.  From Volume 1, Chapters 6 & 12:

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result"

Furthermore, the website I've cited is not just "not-a-real-christian stuff".  It discusses the integrity of Jim Walker, relevant historical facts about Hitler and Nazi Germany, the fallacies in reasoning used by Christian Hitler advocates, sufficient reasons to believe that the quotes from Hitler's table talks were legitimate, etc. 

Hey Godchild,

If you Christians want to repudiate Hitler, why do you folk so readily embrace his practices?

I do not quite get where you are going with this.  He consistently lied and this can be proven using public record.  This was his letter to a French politician, written in 1930:

"I think I can assure you that there is no one in Germany who will not with all his heart approve any honest attempt at an improvement of relations between Germany and France. My own feelings force me to take the same attitude... The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers... And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding... The young Germany, that is led by me and that finds its expression in the National Socialist Movement, has only the most heartfelt desire for an understanding with other European nations."

Hitler also said in one of his speeches (1/30/39):

"Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration: 1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..."

Obviously, he turned out to be lying in both cases.  You are free to defend the integrity of Hitler all you want, but you really have no legs to stand on here.  He is a proven liar and it is clear from his private conversations, blatant misunderstanding of Christian doctrine, and previous actions that he was not a Christian.

He says that "Christianity should die a natural death".  I'm not exactly sure how that is consistent with faith in Christ. 

He also says: "The heaviest blow to humanity was the coming of Christianity", "Christianity is rebellion against natural law", "Christianity is one of the two greatest scourges", "Christianity is an invention of sick brains." 

How is any of that consistent with faith in Christ?  Does he have to say "I do not believe in Jesus" in order for you to reject that he was a Christian? 

What is that book about?  I've located it on Amazon and B&N but nobody has reviewed it and there is not even a synopsis on it. 

http://www.amazon.com/German-Churches-Under-Hitler-Background/dp/0814316034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278467007&sr=8-1

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-German-Churches-under-Hitler/Ernst-Christian-Helmreich/e/9780814316030/?itm=9&USRI=German+churches+Under+Hitler

It's pretty simple. Simply because he writes about propaganda and used it, does not mean that he was lying about his faith.

And he consistenly told the truth as well. People can do both, you know.

Btw, do you really want to suggest that anyone who gets caught in a lie immediately stops being a christian ? You might want to think about that.

I'm afraid I have several more legs to stand on than you do, since we were talking about his faith. You may not agree with the things he believed, but among christians, that's not really very unusual, is it ? For instance, he didn't believe that christ was a jew. I'm guessing you disagree. How that proves that he didn't have faith, I have no idea.

I'll let Hitler himself answer that one :

"Herein lies the essential element of our mission: we must bring back to the German Volk the recognition of those teachings! For what did the falsification of the original concept of Christian love, of the community of fate before God and of socialism lead to? By their fruits ye shall know them! The suppression of freedom of opinion, the persecution of the true Christians, the vile mass murders of the Inquisition and the burning of witches, the armed campaigns against the people of free and true Christian faith, the destruction of towns and villages, the hauling away of their cattle and their goods, the destruction of their flourishing economies, and the condemnation of their leaders before tribunals, which, in their unrelenting hypocrisy, can only be described as balaphemous. That is the true face of those sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man, motivated by selfishness, personal greed for recognition and gain, and the ambition to maintain their high-handed willfulness against Christ's deep understanding of the necessity of a socialist community of men and nations. We must turn all the sentiments of the Volk, all its thinking, acting, even its beliefs, away from the anti-Christian, smug individualism of the past, from the egotism and stupid Phariseeism of personal arrogance, and we must educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each one of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers! This youth will, wit loathing and contempt, abandon those hypocrites who have Christ on their lips but the devil in their hearts, who give alms in order to remain undisturbed as they themselves throw their money around, who invoke the Fatherland as they fill their own purses by the toil of others,"

In other words, he thinks christians aren't being true to christ. I think you'll find that opinion is quite compatible with faith in christ, and again, not very unusual among christians.

It's in the title. Just read it and you'll find out.