What is so wrong with nationalism?
Offline Hey , my name is Alex.
I have been a Christian for a few years now , and I have always went with multiculturalism and progress , because they seemed to be synonymous with each other.
Up until a few months ago , I have researched my heritage. And it got me thinking , "Who am I?" "Where do my people come from?" Naturally , I have had tendencies to say that I am white , and my ancestors come from Europe somewhere. It didn't quite satisfy me , though. Through research of my family history , I have discovered that I don't just come from Europe , I come from a Germanic tribe. At the time , I wasn't sure Hwæt a "Germanic tribe is". I began researching it , and the ideas of "Nationalism" kept popping up. Eventually , I learned about the Battle of Hastings , the Norman Conquest , and the Death of Harold . I was on a website , and it was explaining English history , in details. I read on , and it kept talking about the Normans' rise to power. I was thinking , "Wait a minute. How can this be English history if this is French History? This isn't the history of my people , this is the death of my people". It slowly occurred to me that something wasn't right. The education has brought us up to believe that we follow English culture , but that is not true. We follow Norman culture. Anglo Saxon Culture died long ago . I felt mad , and I didn't like this sudden realization . For a while now , I have put my blame on French people. But it's not the French people that caused it. The idea of Multiculturalism killed my people. Multiculturalism kills people everyday in one of the most multicultural places on Earth , the middle east. Black & White hate crime has skyrocketed to an extreme. Remember when Europeans went to America? I wouldn't call a mass enslavement or execution , "Progress" . The people of Japan have been so progressive , because they are one people.
All in all , I am not trying to spread racism. I care for people , and I do not racially segregate people. Even before I got into Nationalism , I have been a peaceful guy , and I didn't care about anyone's color.
The point is that we are all different , there is no avoiding it.
And if you do not want to be deprived of identity , then why would you let people destroy it?
Ever since Jews inhabited Israel as their homeland , because of nationalism , their country has the most publications per 1000 miles , and is one of the most scientifically advanced countries . See how progression doesn't come from Multiculturalism , but by nationalism?
I am not well-researched in nationalism . I am open to debate. If I am wrong , please correct me.
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Offline Multiculturalism as a concept is a noble thing. Multiculturalism when confronted by the reality of human nature is extremely unpredictable and not as peace engendering as its ( deluded ) proponents would lead one to believe. Some claim that negative attitudes regarding "out" or "foreign" groups are effectively alleviated by simply learning about them and gaining knowledge of their customs, habits, etc, so they are less strange or unfamiliar. So, some how all the historical hostilities among various groups were simply based upon an unfortunate information blackout ? ...... but if we could just get them to learn about each other then it's just a matter of time before their wives are sharing recipes and the husbands are inviting each other over to watch football.
Well, do you think the Serbs lack sufficient knowledge about their historical rivals such as the Croats, or the Muslims ? What amount of knowledge do they lack that will effectively turn them away from their perceived grievances and resentment ? Since the topic of racism is always an intrinsic part of these types of discussions and most multi culturalists for lack of a better word hate racists ( but typically only the white kind ) how much information and familiarity would be needed for such multi-culturalists to let go off their negative stereotypes regarding skin heads / white nationalists and to impart to them a sense of legitimacy and respect ? I suspect no amount of learning and exposure therapy would be sufficient to make you view them in a positive light ? Am I right ?
How much knowledge would be sufficient to induce hard-core liberals to view political conservatives as anything but misguided fools who should be thwarted at every turn ? No tolerance with them, right ? How much knowledge would change your mind about theists and the threat that they pose to a free-minded society ? Would learning and familiarizing everything about them make them any less of a threat to your stated goals ? Would you then cease to regard them as your dedicated opposition ? No ? Then STFU you intolerant, bigoted ass hole. Every one, including multicultural progressives, have out groups that they will refuse to compromise with and will rationalize why maintaining an attitude of exclusion ( ie, prejudice ) is the best course of action.
Differences ( with rare exception ) do not bring people together. This whole f**king forum is filled with page after page of dialog that indicates the truth of that.
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Offline How much knowledge would be sufficient to induce hard-core liberals to view political conservatives as anything but misguided fools who should be thwarted at every turn ? No tolerance with them, right ? How much knowledge would change your mind about theists and the threat that they pose to a free-minded society ? Would learning and familiarizing everything about them make them any less of a threat to your stated goals ? Would you then cease to regard them as your dedicated opposition ? No ? Then STFU you intolerant, bigoted ass hole. Every one, including multicultural progressives, have out groups that they will refuse to compromise with and will rationalize why maintaining an attitude of exclusion ( ie, prejudice ) is the best course of action.
Differences ( with rare exception ) do not bring people together. This whole f**king forum is filled with page after page of dialog that indicates the truth of that.
I'm pretty hard core in my political and religious beliefs and will never cease to see my opponents as opposition but that doesn't mean I'm going to kill them. Hell, I'll even have them over to watch the football game. You can vehemently disagree with someone and still be their friend (or at least not be their mortal enemy). Multiculturalism doesn't demand that everyone be identical, it is simply the mixing/acceptance of a variety of cultures.
As for racism, yeah it will continue well beyond any of our lifetimes, what do you want to do about it? But over the long haul good old fashioned sex will have us so mixed no one will be able to tell what "race" they are. Look at "caucasian" not that far in history people made a pretty big deal over the differences. Today most Americans can't tell the difference between someone of German decent or French decent they are just "white". And another news flash for you, people will continue to kill other people long after the races are mixed. They will just find another reason.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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Offline I And another news flash for you, people will continue to kill other people long after the races are mixed. They will just find another reason.
How reassuring. It's nice to know that there will still be other differences worth killing over.
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Offline Yes, humans are such lovely creatures. Maybe we will be saved by space aliens, then we can focus on killing them and will forget to kill each other.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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Offline Yes, humans are such lovely creatures. Maybe we will be saved by space aliens, then we can focus on killing them and will forget to kill each other.
Humans ? I thoroughly despise them. Seriously.
Interestingly, it is precisely because of my increase in knowledge, familiarity with them, contant exposure to them, etc that I now consider myself to be an avowed misanthrope. The more information that I gain regarding my own species the more entrenched my dislike of humanity. Whatever positive attributes we as a species may possess are grossly outweighed by the preponderance of stupid / self-centered / cruel behavior that characterizes typical human activity.
And with the advent of the internet the available documentation is almost limitless.
Hostis Humani Generis
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Offline Up until a few months ago , I have researched my heritage. And it got me thinking , "Who am I?"
I will answer this question as I go through your post.
"Where do my people come from?"
You are someone who has "his people", which means that some other people are not considered "your people". You are also someone whose point of view I am beginning to slightly dislike. Third line in a post. Not a good sign...
Naturally , I have had tendencies to say that I am white , and my ancestors come from Europe somewhere. It didn't quite satisfy me , though. Through research of my family history , I have discovered that I don't just come from Europe , I come from a Germanic tribe. At the time , I wasn't sure Hwæt a "Germanic tribe is". I began researching it , and the ideas of "Nationalism" kept popping up. Eventually , I learned about the Battle of Hastings , the Norman Conquest , and the Death of Harold . I was on a website , and it was explaining English history , in details. I read on , and it kept talking about the Normans' rise to power. I was thinking , "Wait a minute. How can this be English history if this is French History? This isn't the history of my people , this is the death of my people".
Yep, that's how a nationalist thinks. You read history and you see attacks on "your people" all over the place. Congratulations, you are on my shit list.
It slowly occurred to me that something wasn't right. The education has brought us up to believe that we follow English culture , but that is not true. We follow Norman culture. Anglo Saxon Culture died long ago . I felt mad , and I didn't like this sudden realization .
So, this is a part of why nationalism is not a terribly good thing: you get mad over some shit that happened hundreds of years ago and should have minimal influence on the events of today. Usually, I would call that stupidity, but since people have a say and their sentiments matter, I call it extremely dangerous.
For a while now , I have put my blame on French people. But it's not the French people that caused it. The idea of Multiculturalism killed my people. Multiculturalism kills people everyday in one of the most multicultural places on Earth , the middle east. Black & White hate crime has skyrocketed to an extreme. Remember when Europeans went to America? I wouldn't call a mass enslavement or execution , "Progress" . The people of Japan have been so progressive , because they are one people.
Not only do you get mad about irelevant shit, you also draw conclusions from it that provide you with explanations for what is happening today and what should be done going forward - sort of like deciding life and death by tossing a loaded die that always lands on death.
All in all , I am not trying to spread racism.
I know. It's just terribly unfortunate that you do.
I care for people , and I do not racially segregate people.
No, you care for "your people". There's a difference.
Even before I got into Nationalism , I have been a peaceful guy , and I didn't care about anyone's color.
Except when making policy on who should live where and control what - I got you, no misunderstanding. Everyone should live in peace, but they should first move to wherever "their people" live.
The point is that we are all different , there is no avoiding it.
Yes, we are. You and I are very different, for example. I am white and proud progeny of a grandfather that killed radical nationalists during the entirety of the second world war - the German Nazis. Judgning by the way the world is going, I will have plenty opportunity to repeat the success.
And if you do not want to be deprived of identity , then why would you let people destroy it?
Good point. I will not let nationalists destroy my identity and force their definition of "my people" over it.
Ever since Jews inhabited Israel as their homeland , because of nationalism , their country has the most publications per 1000 miles , and is one of the most scientifically advanced countries . See how progression doesn't come from Multiculturalism , but by nationalism?
Great example. Israel is known for many good things and deeds accross the Middle East and world in general. Their neighbours love them and they are not at all accused of war crimes in the international court, and even if they were it would have been completely unjustified. Except maybe for the last 60 years, but what's 60 years in a life of a nation? Oh, that's right - a 100% of it.
If Israel is who you want to emulate, I want to stop you.
I am not well-researched in nationalism .
Shit, I really hope that's true. Maybe once you make a mind-map of all the massacres produced by nationalistic ideas we can have a serious conversation.
I am open to debate. If I am wrong , please correct me.
So, here we are at the end of the post. You are a nationalist, or how I like to call these people cretin by choice or evil motherfuckers, depending on the context. I come from a country where nationalist ideas slaughtered tens of thousands of people, destroyed dozens of cultures and continue to breed destruction of all aspects of the society. I can tell you it is not a unique place in the world. Nationalism is not a unique idea either, but just another retarded creation of pack mentality directed not so much for your pack's benefit, as it is against everyone else. A self-destructive ideology that hampers progress and propagates insane political leadership.
I apologise if some of my language was harsh. I just don't dig nazis.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
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Offline Multiculturalism as a concept is a noble thing. Multiculturalism when confronted by the reality of human nature is extremely unpredictable and not as peace engendering as its ( deluded ) proponents would lead one to believe.
Humans are always unpredictable. But what is the point in trying to isolate groups? In modern times it just isn't possible. Too many people traveling to too many places. Trying to isolate certain cultures will just give people more reason to think there is something wrong with those people since they aren't a part of their group.
So what do we do? Try and educate people, instead of this bullshit idea to isolate them. The former may never work fully, but neither will the latter.
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Offline But what is the point in trying to isolate groups?
To keep the peace ?
As I said, I applaud the concept of peaceful co-existence and in many instances it is somewhat achievable, but it often exists with an undercurrent of potential volatility ( think Rodney King / La riots. ) But in scenarios where the division is even more deep-seated isolation is an effective barrier to human savagery. On a smaller scale, why counsel a domestic violence victim to remain with her habitually abusive husband if it only leads to the woman receiving further injuries; what's the point of them staying together ? Simply putting physical distance between the two parties undoubtedly mitigates the likelihood of the wife remaining a victim.
Why do prisons frequently separate convicts based upon race or gang affiliation ? Because someone observed that they are less likely to kill each other when they are kept apart.
That's all I'm saying. Enjoy your multicultural paradise.
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Offline And how exactly would you propose separating everyone?
I can't think of a way that wouldn't cause massive riots and violence. The other flaw in your reasoning is that violent people will be violent anywhere. Take your wife beating husband analogy, if you do separate them the bastard will beat his next girlfriend/wife as well, so all you have done is change the victim.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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Offline And how exactly would you propose separating everyone?
I can't think of a way that wouldn't cause massive riots and violence. The other flaw in your reasoning is that violent people will be violent anywhere. Take your wife beating husband analogy, if you do separate them the bastard will beat his next girlfriend/wife as well, so all you have done is change the victim.
I never suggested that people who don't want to be isolationist should be compelled against their will. Please don't push my argument beyond what I have outlined. Seriously, if that's what I meant to say I would have mentioned something about government mandates or something, okay ? I am simply stating a principle of behavior that I see as a preferable solution.
The violent husband scenario was obviously in reference to alleviating the woman's suffering by removing him from the environment. If, as you suggest, the man is a serial wife beater then perhaps it is best left to law enforcement who will ( ironically ) at the very least suggest a restraining order to keep him separated from his victims.
At any rate I am aware of your position; I just have quite a different pov than yourself.
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Offline Fair enough. As long as no uniformed types are coming to make me move you can live wherever you want.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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Offline v4ultingbassist wrote:But what is the point in trying to isolate groups?
To keep the peace ?
As I said, I applaud the concept of peaceful co-existence and in many instances it is somewhat achievable, but it often exists with an undercurrent of potential volatility ( think Rodney King / La riots. ) But in scenarios where the division is even more deep-seated isolation is an effective barrier to human savagery. On a smaller scale, why counsel a domestic violence victim to remain with her habitually abusive husband if it only leads to the woman receiving further injuries; what's the point of them staying together ? Simply putting physical distance between the two parties undoubtedly mitigates the likelihood of the wife remaining a victim.
Why do prisons frequently separate convicts based upon race or gang affiliation ? Because someone observed that they are less likely to kill each other when they are kept apart.
That's all I'm saying. Enjoy your multicultural paradise.
Prison is not your local neighborhood. The people in prison are there for a reason - at the very least they all need anger management classes. You neighbors are generally too busy earning a living to want to bust in heads. I'm sure someone will point out I don't know about inner city hard cores. Fine.
I'm sure if someone bothered to search the web, we'd find 6 sociological articles that supported one side and 1/2 dozen that supported the other side. So you are going to get an earful about my personal experiences.
Yuma AZ in the 60s had two high schools - still does. The one I went to was in the older part of town. It was about 1/3 white (the few Jewish kids were usually lumped into this group), 1/3 Hispanic, 1/3 Black, and a few Chinese kids whose great-grandparents stayed in town after the railroads were built. I had friends in all of these groups. (All the Quechan Indian kids went to their reservation school across the river in California.)
The other high school was lily white suburban bread. Which school had the most rumbles? Dead heat. The most teen pregnancies? Dead heat. Same for drugs, crimes, gangs, etc. No difference. It is probably different now as that was a fuck of a long time ago.
I was very startled as a young adult to meet a young white person who had never known a person of a different color or culture. She was terrified of all black and Hispanic people, was certain all Asian people were geniuses, and couldn't understand how anyone could be Jewish and not be mortally ashamed for their ancestors murdering Jesus. When I told her my very best friend in 6th grade was black, she asked if I was terrified of my friend's family. I was too young at the time to debate with her as my first response was - I was appalled and literally speechless.
I remember a travelogue special on TV years ago. The people doing the documentary traveled down the Mississippi River by boat, meeting with and filming the people who lived along the river. Down south, the black people were always nice and helpful. The southern white people said - you watch out for those blacks, they are dangerous.
I don't think allowing all whatever enclaves is a good idea. You should grow up knowing that all people of whatever culture put their pants on one leg at a time - unless they work for the Cirque.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
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Prison is not your local neighborhood. The people in prison are there for a reason - at the very least they all need anger management classes. You neighbors are generally too busy earning a living to want to bust in heads. I'm sure someone will point out I don't know about inner city hard cores. Fine.
I'm sure if someone bothered to search the web, we'd find 6 sociological articles that supported one side and 1/2 dozen that supported the other side. So you are going to get an earful about my personal experiences.
Yuma AZ in the 60s had two high schools - still does. The one I went to was in the older part of town. It was about 1/3 white (the few Jewish kids were usually lumped into this group), 1/3 Hispanic, 1/3 Black, and a few Chinese kids whose great-grandparents stayed in town after the railroads were built. I had friends in all of these groups. (All the Quechan Indian kids went to their reservation school across the river in California.)
The other high school was lily white suburban bread. Which school had the most rumbles? Dead heat. The most teen pregnancies? Dead heat. Same for drugs, crimes, gangs, etc. No difference. It is probably different now as that was a fuck of a long time ago.
I was very startled as a young adult to meet a young white person who had never known a person of a different color or culture. She was terrified of all black and Hispanic people, was certain all Asian people were geniuses, and couldn't understand how anyone could be Jewish and not be mortally ashamed for their ancestors murdering Jesus. When I told her my very best friend in 6th grade was black, she asked if I was terrified of my friend's family. I was too young at the time to debate with her as my first response was - I was appalled and literally speechless.
I remember a travelogue special on TV years ago. The people doing the documentary traveled down the Mississippi River by boat, meeting with and filming the people who lived along the river. Down south, the black people were always nice and helpful. The southern white people said - you watch out for those blacks, they are dangerous.
I don't think allowing all whatever enclaves is a good idea. You should grow up knowing that all people of whatever culture put their pants on one leg at a time - unless they work for the Cirque.
That's the problem with my using a metaphor that doesn't sufficiently represent every conceivable human relationship. Such is the drawback of a hastily put together post.
But since I am the only advocate for "peace through seclusion" I will simply note that all counter-arguments and rebutalls are duly noted and appreciated.
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Offline Peace through seclusion is a great idea. The biggest problem though is we don't have the ability to send people to their own planets in far distant solar systems. As long as we are stuck on this planet - I think we are stuck with mixed cultures. It is not all bad. I grew up north of San Francisco, CA. Some of the neighbor's dads commuted to work (in SF) with my dad. Our families became friends. They were German, Japanese, East Indian (Muslim), and a really crazy guy who's ancester preached to some of my ancesters in Leidon Holland some generations back.
A recent look down the street in my current neighborhood looks like the playground at the United Nations. African, Japanese, Samoan, Russian. Hispanic, white bread and a whole bunch I can't even begin to guess at. Nice quiet neighborhood, good people, no problems. I think the solution is not separation, but total mixing. I am hoping for something that looks like Mauritius. Stopping point for every race, culture and nationality that ever sailed across the Indian Ocean. Beautiful people.
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Offline Some interesting stats relevant to this conversation at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html
Based on these stats racial tensions does not seem to be a main cause for murder. Most crimes were committed on someone of their own race. 522 whites were kill by blacks. 228 blacks were killed by whites. By comparison 579 husbands were killed by there wives. 1,894 were killed by someone in their family. So if you want to avoid being murdered, don't get married and move away from your family and into a different culture).
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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Wouldn't be great if we could move on from it. I live in a multicultural mob and I wish we could make it work. We are close. We are close. Fuck race. I rate people - don't you folks, too?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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Offline Fuck race. I rate people - don't you folks, too?
I don't know about fuck race, but I definitely fuck people.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
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Offline Atheistextremist wrote:Fuck race. I rate people - don't you folks, too?
I don't know about fuck race, but I definitely fuck people.
Good, good, better than any alternative. 
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
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Offline Yeah, sometimes. It always has amazed me that people can be so bigoted and want to hurt people for no reason. I generally don't hate any individual but hate people as a group.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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Offline Yeah, sometimes. It always has amazed me that people can be so bigoted and want to hurt people for no reason. I generally don't hate any individual but hate people as a group.
I wouldn't worry about it. Hate and love are closely related - both make you want the individual close to you, albeit for different reasons. So they are not really opposites.
Indifference is the opposite of both and that is the real bitch. When you are indifferent to people - that's when you should get worried.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
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Offline Lets say for example that your family had a tradition of eating dinner with hot sauce , and no silverware. That tradition becomes a part of you. And lets say that someone killed your family and forced you to learn someone else' traditions . You have kids , your kids have kids , and their kids have kids.
If one of your descendants hears about the history , he/she may or may Identify with their current traditions any longer , and may want to go back to old traditions , to fill the gap.
I feel the gap inside of me. A whole chunk of history has been taken out of me. I would be better off if I didn't know. But I know now , it it leaves me empty inside. To identify with a certain group of people , is just one of the most beautiful things in life.
Communication is no problem. The exchange of traditions or cultural ideas , is just damaging . without culture , we would use something else to identify with (Race) . When people only identify by race , racism becomes magnified . Violent crimes happen more often. Even though we should be racially categorized , no race should have a different right than another race.
Do any of you honestly think that people would be better off with multiculturalism ?
Doesn't anyone remember the crusades? The poor people of the Americas? Remember the Mayans , the Navajo , the Aztecs , Hopi , Micmaque , etc ?
How can people justify multiculturalism , when so many bad things happen because of it?
Compare United states with Sweden.
One is multicultural/racial , while the other is not (barely any races , except Arabs)
One is violent/dangerous , and the other is very clean and nice.
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Okay. You are a lucky one. 
I was born in the USSR. Studied in Germany (yeh, Stalingrad, baby). Now, I am in the USA. Russians view americans generally no less than stupid brainless hypocritical occupants. And Americans view russians ... well essentially in a similar way.
So, what I do as a Russian? I explain Russians how good it is to leave in the USA, and I explain Americans how good it is to leave in Russia. If I go into a nationalism "closet" and take one side then ... in about 1000 years from now my grand-grand-...-grand children will discover that I was exterminated by another culture.
Do not be stupid. Multiculturalism is the only way to go, and it is also your responsibility to make sure that your children will have no problem with blacks, french, chinese, russians, mexican, USA people, german, iranian, jews, indian, New Zealand, Haitian, etc. etc. etc.
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Offline I guess I always saw nationalism as essentially making the state an infallible being, IE "Our nation can do no wrong, we are always right!" I don't mind patriotism, I consider myself one but my views have had people call me a communist, marxist, traitor, coward, etc. by the 'true patriots' over on the right. Patriotism has different aspects too, to some people it's in arguing in favor of your nation regardless a 'my country right or wrong' for others it's based on arguing what they believe the nations founding principles are and trying to keep the nation from becoming something bad. That's just my view anyhow.
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It is always a matter of perspective.
Patriotism is when you are rah-rah for your own country, nationalism is when the other guy is rah-rah for their own country.
And why get upset over something that happened a thousand years ago? The Norman conquest was in 1066 for pete's sake.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Do check your personal messages.
My wife is 100% Caucasian, yet people think we have a mixed marriage; we are mixed: I look like a WASP, my wife : Kamalawattie Singh Jagmohan is of course caucasian [white] while I am 1/4 Micmaque [mongoloid]. They are only called Micmaque because French explorers encountered them first and gave them the French version of their own name. To the first nations people of north-east New Brunswick Canada; they called themselves "the People" which the French transliterated has Micmaque, the first nations people called themselves "Mee ackee ee muck" ... or " I am real person".
Once upon a time the Commenwealth of Virginia passed A law describing "white" vs. "un-white" [slave country y'all know] they decided in 1801 that anyone who was 1/4 "un-white" was automatically "negro". One month later, after a 'sober second though' they rescinded the law because 75% of white" legistaltures" were DIRECT descendents of Pocohantas, a native American princess. It seems that 'Pocohantas Randolph' had one child and 13 grandchildren and untold great- grandchildren; mostly IN Virginia.
Thomas Jefferson was a direct descendent of Pocohantas, and his one "white daughter" married a Randolph and had 12 children, and 'I lost count' of' his "white grand children". His "un-white" descendents of the five children he had with 1/2 white Sally Hemmings, went forth and multiplied like crazy Has the bible told them to. Historians estimate that T.Jefferson had 150,000 + descendence to date; "Talk about a father of his country", Thommy sure was.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Welcome to the forum.
If you value your culture, then defend it, sure.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
My viewpoint of mixed race people is that they are , who they identify to be.
I , myself am mixed race. I have a small bit of Micmaque in me , and I am also part Celtic , but mostly Germanic (Anglo Saxon).
I identify with the English people , because I feel that it is who I am , mostly.
Even if I am not perfect , it is still a part of me .
It's not mixed races that I am against , it's race mixing in general and multiculturalism. Racism , Race mixing , and Multiculturalism are not progressive .
Check you PERSONAL messages; like now. I was born in New Brunswick, grew uo in Maine, now live in Toronto area. What about you?
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I don't really understand what you mean by this. Do you mean that you think your personality is a direct reflection of 'the english people?' My ancestry is Irish, by a couple of generations, so I have experienced a lot of the culture. The issue that confuses me is that that heritage honestly has almost nothing to do with my personality and who I am. What do you mean by 'the english people?' How is that who you are? Who I am has been shaped by friends and family, not my ancestry. Is this different for you?
And I don't really understand the word 'race.' It just stereotypes people by what they look like. I don't get how multiculturalism is non-progressive. How can everyone get along if no one talks to each other? Economics alone will prevent isolationism anymore, so it's wishful thinking.
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Lets say for example that your family had a tradition of eating dinner with hot sauce , and no silverware. That tradition becomes a part of you. And lets say that someone killed your family and forced you to learn someone else' traditions . You have kids , your kids have kids , and their kids have kids.
If one of your descendants hears about the history , he/she may or may Identify with their current traditions any longer , and may want to go back to old traditions , to fill the gap.
I feel the gap inside of me. A whole chunk of history has been taken out of me. I would be better off if I didn't know. But I know now , it it leaves me empty inside. To identify with a certain group of people , is just one of the most beautiful things in life.
Communication is no problem. The exchange of traditions or cultural ideas , is just damaging . without culture , we would use something else to identify with (Race) . When people only identify by race , racism becomes magnified . Violent crimes happen more often. Even though we should be racially categorized , no race should have a different right than another race.
Do any of you honestly think that people would be better off with multiculturalism ?
Doesn't anyone remember the crusades? The poor people of the Americas? Remember the Mayans , the Navajo , the Aztecs , Hopi , Micmaque , etc ?
How can people justify multiculturalism , when so many bad things happen because of it?
Compare United states with Sweden.
One is multicultural/racial , while the other is not (barely any races , except Arabs)
One is violent/dangerous , and the other is very clean and nice.
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My problem is that it is absurd to define yourself by what your ancestors did or didn't do or what was done or not done to your ancestors by someone else's ancestors. Your identity is uniquely yours and you ought to be judged on your own actions not those of your ancestors before you were even a thought. As far as traditions I can understand why you would want to hold on to food, ceremony, dances etc that have been in your culture for years but the best way to keep those alive is to share them with other cultures.
While your at it go celebrate and learn the traditions of other cultures, it can be a lot of fun. I celebrate different holidays every year and there is always something new to experience. Then maybe I won't be the only white guy at the Divali festival. Just whatever you do, DO NOT go into a Catholic Church on Easter or Christmas, you never get out.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I am not trying to play the blame game.
I am a Christian , and one of the main Christian beliefs is that Jews had Jesus put to death. I am not mad at present day Jews , because they had no part in what took place 2,000 years ago.
I got beat up by a black kid. I'm not mad at all black people , because they didn't do anything.
My father is a smoker and alcoholic , however I do not smoke or drink.
The normans conquered the Anglo Saxons , but im not angry at present day France or Quebec .
However , I have certain traditions , because they are unique to my people. Culture is one of the things that identifies people. If someone has no identifying culture , then they are missing out on a lot of things.
Life is short , and we only got one life , so i do try to make the best of it. But nothing gets accomplished if you don't do anything.
Some activists spend their whole life , knowing that their fight will not end in their lifetime , but they do it anyway , so people of future generations have something to look back on.
The crusades were christians killing muslims for killing christians not what I would call multiculturalism, I would call that war. The conquering of North and South America I would also call war. So are you just equating war with multiculturalism?
Do you mean violent/dangerous as in our military endeavors over seas or the murder rate? Because the first has nothing to do with our racial diversity. And I wouldn't exactly term most of the US as "violent/dangerous" in most of the US you are quite safe from being murdered. Most of our violent crime is concentrated in specific areas and tend to be drug and gang related. I don't walk around worried someone is going to shoot me. Can racism lead to violence? Of course. When people of different races live next to each other is violence a guaranteed result? No. Violence tends to be more closely related to socio-economic status than race although in the US some races are worse off economically than others.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
So is learning and experiencing a culture that isn't yours, so it can become yours. Which, by the way, is what your ancestors were. A mix of various cultures that became isolated at some point. Now everyone is mixing. And guess what? If we mix enough, we'll have one world culture. But instead there are people with attitudes similar (but not the same) to yours, who want separation. The desire to keep people separated fuels the anger and hatred that exists today. Your position is scarily close to theirs. Communication with separation? How would that work?
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There is multicultural and then there is multicultural.
I grew up in Yuma, Arizona. My high school band played Herb Alpert music (sort of pop mariachi if you are not familiar). We had Mexican food take out payday nights. My family would go to square dancing at the VFW. We often wore western clothes though we were none of us cowboys or ranchers. We were not religious, but we celebrated the heck out of Christmas. And so on.
My dad is English and German. Though he claims to be "Pennsylvania Dutch". Try explaining to someone who learned to speak German while fighting in Germany in WWII that "Pennsylvania Dutch" started out as Pennsylvania "Deutsch" - which is what the Germans call themselves. I gave it up as a bad deal.
My mom - well, Heinz 57 - Irish - probably - Scot or the northern border of England (around Gretna Green) - Dutch as in Holland or English (the jury is out on that ancestor) - and either French or American Indian (most likely a tribe related to the Black Foot tribe but wiped out long ago) or maybe both. Those French trappers got around.
My current neighborhood: The neighbors across the street are Hispanic and more like Native Southern Americans than Spaniards. I don't know, but I'm guessing Mexican. One next door neighbor associates with her Celtic background. The other next door neighbor is Moldovan and his wife is Eastern European or Mediterranean - maybe Turkish? There is a Russian immigrant family down the street. A gal with cerebral palsy. And so on.
PS: my neighborhood has one of the lower crime rates in the city.
My husband is largely Scot and Irish (his dad's first and middle name is Robert Bruce.) They are not religious and don't celebrate any holidays at all. Not even birthdays.
So, which culture shall I choose? And which aspect of the multiculturalism should I get all bent about? The neighbor practicing classical recorder? The other neighbor switching between mariachi and hip-hop music? The jazz my husband likes? How about I enjoy all the neighbors, my own childhood memories and my husband's and I listen to all the music around me?
There may be other reasons for the discrepancies between Sweden and the US besides multiculturalism, you know.
Are you trying to tell us you are one of the supremacists? Like somehow Anglo Saxons are better than everybody else? How would you know you are Anglo Saxon? What if your ancestors are actually the people who were in England (who were themselves invaders) that the Anglo Saxons conquered? What if your ancestors are Roman? Or Celtic? Or Scandinavian? A fair number on the eastern coast of England have Scandinavian ancestors. Jute, Frisian, Lower Saxony, Jutland (all Germanic tribes) or southern Sweden? This last group hit all about the same time. Spanish - from the failed Spanish armada invasion - lot of Spanish sailors washed up on shore and were just added to the local clans. Don't you realize England was conquered and re-conquered over and over by numerous peoples? Just how do you know for certain sure that your ancestors were pure - or even not so pure - Anglo Saxon?
I once tried the free trial Ancestry.com offers. They couldn't find my ancestor. I was able to find him in the census records. I wouldn't take what they say (or any other service like that) for certain sure.
Try this: The Journey of Man by Spencer Wells. Also available on DVD as a PBS special. The guy is a geneticist who analyzed the Y chromosome in men to trace human migrations. Fascinating. Very readable, well explicated.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I recall Andy Capp (of Li'l Abner fame) responding to a question about his "racism" with -"Last I heard, there was only one human race." Any more, I think the same could also be said about culture. Granted, there is still a huge diversity, but compared to when I was a kid, the lines are blurring faster all the time. With the speed up in communication, and the destruction of less viable cultures, it is all beginning to look like Chop Suey. Dating myself, see Flower Drum Song.
I didn't mean every single aspect of the Crusades.
The Spaniards did not leave America , and the British did not leave America.
Mayan culture is virtually non-existent .
Native Americans are finally getting their culture back , God bless them.
Yea , crime tends to be drug or gang related. Do you know who are mostly in those gangs? minorities . I'm not saying that those individual races are violent. In Africa , Africans tend to be the normal people , and the minorities are the hateful group. In US , they tend to be a hateful group. Likewise , Anglo-Africans tend to be the hateful group in Africa . It has nothing to do with race , it's always the feeling of loneliness and segregation that makes people hateful.
v4ultingbassist
Culture has been considered an art form by various people. In art , several styles can't just be mashed together and called "Master Piece". It takes practice to really define your art as original. Same with music. Michael Jackson didn't become the king of pop because he followed the same style that everyone else did. He followed his own style , not the style of others. People say that multiculture is apparent in today's society , but it's not. It's far from it. People are looked down upon , because they act or dress differently. People are even made fun of because of their language. I remember in California , that a lot of Muslims or Sikhs were called Hindus. I can't believe how many times I have heard someone say to my friend "Thank you , Come again" , because he has dark skin. People only respect other people's culture from afar.
CJ
No , I'm not a supremecist.
I just said that I was mixed race. I identify with the Anglo Saxons , because I am a descendant . The only reason I do not identify with my Native American or Celtic ancestors , is because they don't describe me or where I come from . it's something instinctive. A half black , half white girl will either be more in touch with her mother's heritage , or her father's heritage .
Some multi-racial communities aren't going to be violent , but there are a lot.
Umm... People can communicate online.. thats what we are doing now.
And you want that to continue by isolating cultures...
So your solution to the problem of hate of different groups is to separate them, instead of convincing them that people are people and they can live together and still be different? I'm much more inclined to convince people that there isn't anything wrong with being different. Look at history, society is gradually allowing groups once looked down upon to at least have governmental recognition of equality. Things are moving in the right direction. Isolating everyone will just bring back old attitudes. Not to mention that I think the isolation you wish to achieve is impossible at this point.
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And neither did the Italians, Chinese, Irish, Germans, Vietnamese, South Koreans, Japanese, French etc. and I think that is a great thing. In America you can experience a dozen different cultures without leaving the same city. That is pretty cool and a heck of a lot of fun.
Yeah, so. People make fun of my Minnesotan accent some times. People make fun of a lot of things. If your skinny, fat, young, old, middle aged, blond, brunette, red head, freckles. You name it people will make fun of it. Learn to laugh at yourself. Too many people have become way too easily offended at a few jokes. Comedy is good. Comedy that is politically incorrect can be fantastic.
Oh no, we have so many cultures in America that people can't keep them straight that is a real good reason not to have so many cultures.
AHHHHHHHHHH, store clerks say that to me all the time! I must be dark skinned, and my ex always made fun of me because I couldn't tan. Wait til she hear this. For your info, "Thank you, Come again" is a very typical farewell in American stores, especially small ones. It means thank you for your business please come again and spend more money.
I like to jump right in the middle of it. Maybe the problem is people like you who for some reason are afraid of mixing culture.
Umm... some communities are not going to be violent but others will be. And some countries will fight wars and others wont. Violence has been around as long as people have and it will continue. Thats life.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X