Hear you go Fonzie
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Fonzie wrote:
Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
Well hear are some of my Favorite examples of the God you love so much. Please dont try to use the typical christian copouts you have allready said that you "love the Bible and believe all of it"
Judges 21:10-24 NLT
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan. The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse." Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes. Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
Numbers 31:7-18 NLT
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Fonzie wrote:
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
Have you had enough yet? I know raping and killing inocent people is just a part of your religion, but this God of yours seems to have a real chip on his sholder.
I know, I know, I know, you just can't get enough huh... Well hear is some more enjoy:
Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment
Judges 11:29-40 NLT
"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."
I hope you don't have any loved one fighting in one of our many religous war. Well that's a lie hope you do, and I hope they made this kind of promise with there imaginary friend while they were there.
Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."
Hey that one hits close to home you are on web page "Town" full of non-believers do you need to kill us. Your Lord will be pissed if you dont obey his commands. He says it right there.
Fonzie wrote:
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
I can only hope that the next "certain point" in your life that changed it all will be the day you open your eyes. This God of yours is the most distructive force in the world...
Oh I know what your thinking most of those books are in the Old Testiment, right.. That shit don't happen any more. Well 911 wasn't a few motherfuckers joy riding and lost controll. Make no mistake you may call him by a different name but you pray to the same God.
Fonzie wrote:
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
Well you are fooling yourself into thinking that you will live forever in heaven.. Hears my something better reality. Get a grip on yourself think about all the shit that has been done in the name of God. Sick shit..
I know, I know, I know, you just can't get enough.. Well hear is some more: Enjoy..
Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Exodus 21:2-6 NLT
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
Romans 1:24-32 NLT
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
I hope you have all enjoyed the read...
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
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Fonzie is a bit more out of it then then the usual theist. Just try makeing Fonzie understand that Joshua Bar Joseph was a totally ficticious charactor, invented mostly by Saul of Tarsus, from elements of legends and real preachers of the early first century. Most likely Fonzie read a few passages in the bible that he liked and never bothered to read the rest of the bible. If he had read the entire bible he would now be an atheist.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I didn't even bother with the good parts. Are there any?
They want u to think that there are good parts but really just bullshit and lies
I did not say "good parts" I said 'parts he likes' . I'm not aware of any good parts eather.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I like the part where Jesus goes into the temple with the corrupt money lenders who kidnapped his son and killed his wife, and he pulls out his uzis and starts kicking over tables, and calling them sons-of-bitches. "I'm kicking over your tables, you sons-of-bitches."
Then he shoots up the whole place. *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* Ducats go flying. "Borrow this!" he shouts (I'm not sure why, since they lend money), killing each one with a Matrix-like swirl of his robes. (Boy, howdy, I was worried for a second it was going to fly open and we'd end up with a view of his Staff of Life!)
Turns out he was in the wrong temple, and so killed the wrong money lenders, but man was that an awesome scene.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Lol.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
What I was getting at is every christian I've met (including my own mother) only pay attention to the "good parts" of the bible. They seem to ignore the parts where god orders killing of men,women and children. The way I see it is no child deserves to be murdered but fonzies lord seen fit to do so apparently. This was what I meant when I said "good parts".
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
So I don't want you to think I was quoting what you were saying
Well It was a little long but I hope most got through it. Most of it is reruns to those of us that have read the bible but I can only hope that Fonzie gets to read it. It's outside the books that they normally read but why do they only believe half of the books?
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Sorry I misunderstood the quote. Fonzie & your mother & most christians are what we call "cafateria christians", they pick a few items from the buffet, then carry a wacked out belief that it makes them a good christian. All that it realy does is make them hypocritical assholes.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Oh come on! Genesis is just filled with incest porn.
Take the story of what happened to Lot after Sodom was destroyed. His kids got him drunk and then hopped on his boner. Then did it the next night too.
Of course there are good parts to the bible.
=
absolutely
Well personally, I rather like the Song of Solomon. Nice, down to earth erotic love song.
Yeah, the Bible has some interesting stories. I noticed that you pulled out some negative stuff. I was wondering about this and wanted to ask, "let's pretend there is a higher power, God, how would you want God to behave?"
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Following the rules he allegedly set out for his creation would be a nice start.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
How would you want a god to behave? It should have a thread of its own.
For a start I'd like a conversation if we're going to be best friends for all eternity. I don't want to share a tent at summer camp with some weird kid I've never met. And the one punishment fits all crimes thing - that needs to go. God can't preach morality and go missing when it's time to forgive people. Imagine a god able to show actual mercy and actual forgiveness instead of plugging jesus in to quench his thirst for blood. He's not a bloody mayan, after all. Let's not bullshit each other here. If god revealed his godliness to us in truth, we'd grovel with the best of them and nibble tenderly on the soles of his feet.
There are a few personal things I'd like. A tour of the universe and the particle-verse. But he's got to lose the hymns and organise me a mandarin diablo and a small, round brunette with a smile like the first day of spring. After that he could just go away and do his own god thing elsewhere. We can stay in touch via facebook - no praying. And no more omnipresciense. You don't want god's huge monkey face glowering down all the time. Every time you picked up an apple you'd get panic attacks.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
If I'm nibbling feet god better be an attractive female. If he is the old man with the big grey beard no feet nibbling for me I don't care how powerful he is. Now if it is Alanis Morissette, I'll nibble those feet all day.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Now that was a good movie.
Foot loving would be a little trying if he was a socratic pilgrim who'd just marched halfway across majipoor in a pair of bamboo jandels.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Dude. Why do you think the disciples were constantly washing Jesus's feet?
It started when Luke said, "I am not nibbling on anything 'til you've had a pedie."
Then there was the other ritual washing which started after Judas said, "You want me to suck on what?"
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
How did that post turn into foot nibbling? I don't know maybe it was the post about finding the good stuff in the bible and someone has a foot fetish and gets a chubby every time they hear that story. Well lets just say that that's the only good story there and leave it at that... I do like where were going with it.. It could be soft porn before you know it.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Rules, I am assuming you mean the 10?
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Those would be a good start - if you believe the story, he wrote them. They shouldn't be too hard for him to figure out.
Are you going to counter with the "might makes right" argument?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Good to hook back up with you Ae. Yeah, the concept of talking into thin air and believing you're being heard is much different than what we do in this forum or face-to-face, although it is interesting to ask for something and have it happen. Once could flippantly say, "Oh, that's just a coincidence" yet looking at all the occurrences after the request one is lead to believe that it was providence.
I've never been to one of those 'summer camps' you mentioned - I missed out on those. IRT the 'one punishment', I'm assuming you're talking about death. Yes, people (in His terms - His creation), died at His hands or through the hands of other people (Cain as an example), and the Hebrews, that's true. Judgment wasn't always enforced in the OT (Cain is a good example, there are others). There are many instances of mercy in the OT, at His hands. In your opinion, can God be 'sovereign'?
IRT 'a bloody Mayan', the set up of the Levitical law instituting a 'sacrifice' system is interesting. I can't impose what I know upon people outside my era. And because of the era I am in and the knowledge contained inside that era, I can't assume they were more advanced and knowledgeable. In fact, it's probably safer to assume that the people of the OT understood more a sacrificial system that included a means by which one could be forgiven by God, than anything else we could conjure up today. I'm not saying these people were not as smart, just that sacrifice was easily understood. In many ways, we who are on the earth now are like them. We're just as crafty and smart in our environment, yet there are things we do not understand, and those things we do understand we choose whether to accept or deny them. Cain gave of the fruit of the ground, something he toiled over to make grow. Abel gave a spotless lamb, something he cared for that was living - much more valuable. Anyway, taking the stance of believing the OT is a true historical record and placing myself in Abrahm's shoes, could I have understood anything more or less than he? Probably not. Yet, again believing the OT, he was guided. He even pleaded with God for Sodom/Gommorah, had he gone down to 5 history for that region would be different, but all we have is sulphuric remains.
I would like a tour of the universe!!! "Loose the hymns" hahahahaha, those are a creation of man. I'm not a huge fan, although there are some that I like. "He could just go away and ..." is that any way to treat a best friend? Ok, God, you did what I asked, now go away and come back when I call again. Doesn't sound like much of a relationship. Sounds more like you're the god and he's just a servant. <smile> "No praying", I'm not much for canned ejaculatory sermons aimed at God. The relationship I enjoy is much like the one you see in "Fiddler on the Roof" where Tevye converses with God any time - that's the way I believe it is to be. Yeah, there are times when it can be more than that, but I believe, for the most part that it's all about the relationship.
Omnipresence - hahahahaha, well, I would rather He be omnipresent and transcendental. Kind of conceited to think He's just there for me and no one else. Relationship shouldn't be based on fear, if so, there's no relationship imo. Might as well be living with a cyclops.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
I needed a chuckle this morning, thanks.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Whew... my chest hurts from laughing so hard, dammit!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Interesting... her lips are nice but, well... everything else is kinda 'meh'. Including personality.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Look - I was being light hearted there for the most part. I guess the point with the 'go away god' was that friends don't live in each other's pockets. You wouldn't want to be in the presence of god with billions of other fan boys for the rest of eternity. Assuming paradise, you'd want to go do heaven's metaversal great ocean road on your solid titanium ducati - 5000 light years of curves - all perfectly cambered. And the awesome bands on friday nights. And the long midday meals overlooking a thousand miles of vineyards bathed in golden light.
There'd be cool stuff to do - you'd not be hanging around god's feet drooling all day long. I've always thought the fixation with being with god eternally was a bit creepy. The fiddler on the roof - I really felt he was talking to himself in a way - it was inner dialogue given the form of conversation by including another party. I guess I do this with my dead father and it worked well in the show.
But the point I on want to land on for a moment is sacrifice. We may have hit on this before but consider the ancient priests. Stuck in the temple with no supermarkets in the town. These people needed food - they needed sacrifices of spotless lambs and harvest bounty. They needed alms. They got these by urging gifts from their temple's flock by leveraging guilt. Such sacrifices are no different from the monies catholics give priests to buy off their sins - the worse the sin, the bigger the 'bribe'.
You will not want to see it Hes, and it's debatable, but I think sacrifice is a cultural development used by churches to make profit by playing on guilt and the ultrusim inherent in the social, human animal. Humans feel guilt and they like to give. In some ways I can't help seeing Jesus as the personification of the great human instinct to bribe. Let's kill the perfect one - so spotless he'll save us all. Let's not really change or even try. Let's bribe our way out of trouble like we always have before. Bribery is not foregign to the midle east after all - it's normal social currency.
Then you have to think about who wrote this stuff. The jewish priests. The hungry jewish priests. As a preacher's kid who has lived on the stingy offerings of the congregation, I know that talk is cheap and generosity only goes so far. An hour a week is about as much as most people are prepared to invest in their eternal life. It was an upbringing of profound poverty and my preacher's kid friends all had the same experience. Now older, I'm glad of this simple childhood but it shines a light on the motivations of needy, ill-dressed men with many mouths to feed, who chanted and later wrote down those first texts.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Yes, I've caught most of your light-hearted remarks - laughed at quite a few of them. I have never felt, nor do I ever think I will ever feel, that God is living in my pocket. I don't sense that kind of inspection in my life. I don't think that omnipresence means He's on and about you 24/7, He can, but I believe He chooses not to. Yes, Christianity says that the Holy Spirit is employed to those that believe, and there's a reference in John about making a 'home' in you. Again, although this could be construed as 24/7, in my case I just don't sense it. I'm more like Tevye, taking advantage of the opportunities given to me to talk with Him - do I do this 24/7 - no? I do lean on Him quite a bit though.
None of us has a clue about the width of heaven (His abode). I don't see it as a Japanese apartment, and I believe it to be larger that the dimensions of New Jerusalem. I prefer to think that if all this is true, He will have space enough for all those wanting to come. I'm thinking (this is a WAG) that heaven isn't a dull place. It appears the lion will lay down with the lamb and there will only light (no night); there will be no crying; no death; no mourning; or pain. A far cry from inside the brick walls of man-made temples. IRT Tevye, sure, he had desires and did talk about them with himself, but at the same time that kind of conversation is also heard. There were other times that he asked for protection for his daughter.
If we take the OT as it stands, the Levites were given commands what to sacrifice, how to sacrifice, and why. I don't believe for a minute that it was tied to any monetary gain. Yes, the Levites were set apart and could only gain their livlihood from the temple. And we see in the NT the issue of vendors making it easy for worshippers to purchase animals, birds, etc at the temple vice dragging it a long distance. I've seen the earlier discussion regarding the clearing of the temple, and I'm a bit disappointed by some of the responses - too flippant. I hold no grudge or ill-will, just think that conversations of this sort be handled with respect.
Yes, there have been a share of TV evangelists (I use that term lightly) that have, for their own gain, robbed people blind. That is really unfortunate for those affected, but I also blame them for not engaging their brain first. There are many gullible people around - easy pickings!
IRT sacrifices used by churches to make profit through guilt, in some cases I agree, and I'll also say it is wrong. There's a twist to that as well, where some churches falsely teach monetary rewards for giving - that, too, is wrong. And we see these people who extort driving in there limo's etc. So, as you said, using Jesus to extort is a great sin of the church, and it's dead wrong. Where I attend, a great portion of giving goes to needs (whether they be here in the US or overseas. The other portion goes to salaries and church operations like electricity, etc. I can honestly say there are no improprieties. The annual budget is scrutinized.
I'm sorry you experienced what you did as a preacher's kid. We are all born into circumstances we did not choose. All we can do IMO is learn and grow from those experiences. You turned one way, I turned another (I did so at age 39). I was brought up in Catholicism - I am a part of that no longer and belong to a Protestant church. I think the recurring theme is 'man.' And man has caused a great deal of pain to many generations of people, even to himself. I managed to misdirect my life for 21 years, one day I found myself looking up and haven't regretted a single day since.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
If we think back on history, there were shamen before there were priests. And the shamen were to create magic - rainstorms when needed, no rain when too much rain was happening, eclipses, and so on. But magic doesn't work reliably and there is no one but the shaman to blame - the rain comes when it comes and stops when it stops. And if your magic doesn't work often enough, why should the group pay you?
Look how easy it is for a priest as compared to a shaman. If your prayers are answered, you can say your intervention with god did it. If your prayers are not answered, you can blame the people for not being pious enough, you can say it is obviously not in god/s/dess plan, it is not god/s/dess will, and so on. And you still get money from the dupes - er, congregation.
I'm glad for you that your church is honest and that the money is going where they are saying it is going. I truly hope you never find out that it isn't so. That sort of revelation shouldn't happen to anyone whether you are talking mutual funds or churches.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
If my prayers are answered, I rejoice because I believe that what I asked was within His will. If they are not, there is no blame - 'no' is a valid answer (or it could be 'not right now'. For those prayers that were answered, was this a coincidence? Fate (it was going to happen anyway)? A setup where the person already knew the result? Or was there intervention by something that no human could have ever achieved? For those prayers that were not answered, it's useless to play the blame game (it's a very old game that has had poor results - even since the Garden episode). If God exists, and He is sovereign, and you believe He made you, what right does dust have to say to its maker, "do my bidding"? Prayer shouldn't change God, if it did that would leave the person always guessing. Prayer, in reality, should change the person. Regardless, the solution is to pray until something happens (PUSH). People give because there's a reason to give, whether they are duped or not. It's a natural thing to want to help. Whether it be 9/11, the recent tsunami, hurricane relief efforts, a street person, or a family stricken by some disaster. Do you give?
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
That's a nice way to take responsibility for your God - no matter what the answer is, he's right. I'd love to have had that option in my classes. I'd have graduated summa cum laude every time.
And when you combine it with the "might makes right" argument - it's a juggernaut.
(Do I need to tell you I'm being sarcastic?)
If it's a natural thing ( I agree it is and I have and will continue to help where able) why do believers need the incentive of counting up their heavenly brownie points?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Prayer and chance work out to be the same rationale. You see when you say (PUSH) I think rationally. I need that promotion at work so I will pray about it until it happens. The rational thing to do is to work harder than the co-worker applying for the same possition. Rational people would work harder, you on the other hand would "pray until somthing happens". I had a pastor tell me once that prayer is not a given, you must do both ask, and work for what your asking for. I excliamed then why do the prayer part, if i still have to do the work part. Well pray to God for the strength to work harder, why not just get rest, and take viatamins. I never really understood what happen that day until I became an Atheist. "It was my rational brain trying to excape from that scary place" Here is another example: I want a new car but I don't want to pay for it! So i would play the Lotto and try my luck at the casino. Again you would "pray until something happened". Now in this rationale chance works in my favor. See I do have a chance to win the Lotto, and I'm ok at the poker table. So I do have the chance of waking up to new car in the driveway. (without working for it) So you pray until you get yours and I bet mine happens first. Or you could just be the hypocrite that sits accross from me at the tables with your crusafices as a card cover. Then you would just have to pray for luck.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Prayer does not mean idleness. I do what I can with what I have in the natural. God does His part in the supernatural. The work part is because the believer does it for Him, the prayer part is relationship. Whether I work or not prayer is unavoidable. Why? Because of relationship. In your car example, there's real need then what I would term 'flesh' need. Flesh need is "I want". Real need is "I need because I do not have", and the need is something of sustenance. Let's say I'm out of work (like a lot of people today) and I've been doing like most people do (putting out my resume everywhere, attending interviews, etc). The job comes, but I don't have transportation. I would submit that God knows that, but I pray anyway. What may come might not be a vehicle for you to own, but a loaner from a good Samaritan. Later, something else good could show up allowing you to purchase a car. This has happened to me, and, in fact, I was given two loaners during a 6-month period (that's how long it took to get my feet firmly planted and stabilize my life), then I was able to make a purchase. I work just as hard. The issue I think you have is "why pray" when I can do it myself. I look at it differently, He owns everything, so why not work for Him and let Him supply my needs. Meanwhile, I work where He puts me.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Yeah, sarcasm duly noted. You assume too much. <smile>
Count brownie points?! Not me. I guess you are referring to Matthew 6:19-21, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. “But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." I don't work because I can be blessed, I work to honor Him, and the benefit is treasure heaven. Honestly, I don't spend any time fretting over this. My heart is in Him and He's proven to me to be faithful.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
So when you pray and you work to make your prayer come true - Did God anwer your prayer or are you giving him credit for stuff he didn't do?
I can't tell you how many testimonies I've heard along the lines of "I was told I had cancer. I had the church pray for me and I prayed for healing too. Then I went to the hospital and the surgeon removed the tumor . Afterward, they gave me radiation treatments and chemotherapy to make sure it doesn't come back. The oncologist has been keeping track of my condition and I've been cancer free for <x> years. Jesus healed me! He's better than any doctor or hospital!"
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
How do you know He didn't do anything? Why can't He work through the hands of His creation? He gifted artisans, why can't He gift those in the medical community. Surgery isn't always successful. I've been in situations where much prayer and work went towards a person with cancer and they died anyway. Were we wrong to involve ourselves? I've been in situations where there's visible proof of cancer (X-ray of a mass) and then a month later it is gone. No doctor intervention, just prep for surgery and follow-on chemo etc. Patient is cancer-free. Did the doctor's make a mistake - they don't think so, the analysis was correct in their determination. So were left with an event that could be unexplainable, or maybe not. My own mother was made cancer free after it had come back from remission. The doctor's were ready to begin therapy, but they never got a chance to do it. Was it some cosmic coincidence that the cancer went away and we say, "Oh, that was her karma"? I look at this ball of dirt we reside on and marvel at it - it was made by chance with no designer. Tough for me to swallow.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
So, rather than acknowledge the effort, knowledge and abilities of highly skilled and trained people, you choose to denigrate their efforts and credit the invisible man in the sky?
If you pray to get something and then immediately go out and buy that thing you prayed for, does God get that credit also?
As a fellow survivor, I'm glad your mom is beating cancer. However, multiple spontaneous remissions and even reversals have physical explanations. I don't claim to know the explanations but I know that it happens.
What do you say when the person dies? "Oh it was God's will (absolving God of responsibility)? Why not praise God for triggering the cancer in the first place? It was his will or it wouldn't have happened right? Before you chalk it up to sin - remember that sin is God's will also.
Oh and the human body, the earth and the universe are actually rather shoddily designed. Are you sure you want to give God credit for it?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Well prayer is never my way out, i mean if I WANT something because I want it then I go out and get it. I never worry about does this please god for me to have this. Or pray for a sign that be Gods will. If you want that new car and work your ass off to get it, the first thing you do is slap your fish sticker on the back of it and give praise to God. Well that doesn't work for me rather I would slap TOOL sticker on the back and go to work. Well i might do some of my own type of celebrating but not to God I did that shit...
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Who said anything about not acknowledging effort, knowledge, and abilities? Not me. You assume too much. Man works, and he works hard: There is no doubt about that.
Nine years ago I was in desperate need of transportation. My car had died and I was benefiting on the good will of people around me. We were able to put together a good down payment on a car through sticking to our real needs. Prior to going out and purchasing a car, we did a lot of research on the best economical cars and which dealers in our area had the best prices. We prayed a simple prayer asking for our steps to be directed and that we would be led to someone with integrity. Going to car dealerships is an interesting experience. When you leave them with a car you feel as though you still got ripped off (at least that's been my experience). Anyway, we get to the dealership we picked out and looked around the parking lot. We were approached by a salesman who talked with us, understood what we were in the market for and found 3 choices that he thought matched our needs. We looked them over and picked one and went back to finish the deal. Well, come to find out the guy is a deacon at a local Baptist church. We were surprised. We got to know him in that short time, and after leaving felt we had got the best deal possible because he did have integrity and was honest. In my 40 years of dealing with car dealerships, that was the best experience ever. Not because he was a Christian, but because of the matched values we had. I couldn't have orchestrated that event. Oh sure, one could pass it off as coincidence. I acknowledge that God directed our steps. We did what we could do in the natural, He did what was required in the supernatural. This has happened many times in my and my wife's life.
IRT people dying, it is unfortunate; however, we all have the same disease: death. It will come to us sooner or later. This body we live in is mortal. This isn't being flippant, it's just a fact. When people who have died around us, such as my mom, no, we're not that flippant either. The Bible has a couple of passages that say, "No man has authority to restrain the wind with the wind, or authority over the day of death" and "man is destined to die once". We can't stop it. There is an order in the universe (earth included), there is birth and there is death. We see it in the stars, we see it on earth, and we see it in man. I'm sure you have heard it said (as you mentioned above). And if we are to believe that God created what we see now and that He has supreme control over that creation, then your logic of "It was his will or it wouldn't have happened" is right. However, there is a difference between 'will' and 'what is permitted to happen.' Death is hard to take, even worse watching someone go right in your arms. I posit that I mourn just as you, and no, I don't flippantly say, "It was God's will" for the person to die no more than I would say it was His will that a person contract cancer. It is just how things are.
IRT cancer, whether you measure man's time on earth in thousands or in millions of years, we've been here for quite some time. The gene pool, in my opinion, has degraded. Disease is in the world. Mankind can be faulted for quite a bit of it due to his inability to deal with the actual disease caused by a simple scratch or he has caused it himself in the name of progress (3-mile island and other examples come to mind like the burying of waste and housing built over the dumps). Did God cause disease, I don't think so. Can He cause it? Yes, we have examples in the Bible (Moses' arm for example). He allows it to happen. You've probably heard it said that Adam and Eve's sin corrupted what we now see and experience. Perfect turned into imperfection. It's not a provable story, but Christians and Jews are sticking to that story. This fits your statement of "chalking it up to sin". No, the God of the Bible does not 'will' or 'sanction' sin. Does He allow it? Yes. God did not will Cain to kill Abel nor did he will Jael to drive a tent peg into Sisera's head nor did He will David to have sex with Bathsheba and kill her husband.
IRT the design of the human body and the universe, your statement is interesting. I take another point of view. They are both marvelous! With one I am allowed to exist and the other I am allowed to see and experience. There may be perceived ugliness in both, but for the most part, imo, they're both marvelous.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
How do you differentiate between what effect was God and what effect was man? Is it possible? Since Christians don't have greater cancer survival rates that Muslims or atheists (assuming other factors are equal), what is the point of praying if you have cancer? Is it just psychological, to make yourself feel better? If so, can you show that praying is more beneficial than a good therapist?
If life that has rejected God is the same as a life that embraces God, then what is the point of God? Is it just a gamble that the particular God you've chosen might like the rituals you've done in life enough to make you immortal?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
If prayer works then why was my son born with a condition that was presumed untreatable at the time. This is the part where I get pissed off. You see cancer is nothing to mess with I know. BUT KIDS. come on that's not the will of God, and if it is then count me in for the burning shit. I don't, and want subscribe to a God that finds it apparently funny to torment his little ants that he put on the blue green ball....
Short story about a Hospital in San Antonio Texas. This is where we take our son for surgery's. He had an open heart surgery to repair a large VSD (hole). The surgeon and I talked a lot about my son during those days, and the surgeon showed me the floor of the hospital that was once the stem cell research facility. There was a new paper clipping framed on the wall of George W. Bush locking the door. This surgeon knew I was a nonbeliever and felt comfortable telling me this. See he was one of the leading infant heart surgeons in the world. (at the time) With this stem cell research they were able to actually grow an fetus heart in a box, along side the mother growth of the fetus. He could then preform the implant procedure while the fetus was still using the mothers blood supply. Once the surgery was complete cut the cord and there was the first heart replacement done without bypass. He told me that closing the center was not the worst part, it was calling the 8 or so family that he was currently treating and telling the to go have an abortion..
George W. Bush did this to defend the honor of his god!!! SICK FUCKER
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
That sucks.
I didn't know anyone had practical research that far along.
Did your son survive?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Yes he is much better, he still has to have surgerys to repair his spine and ribs. We make it on love for each other, and love for him. not prayer!
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
You've got my best wishes.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
How do I differentiate, for the most part by those things I know that I could not have done myself in that particular time and space. The car example I gave above, and there are others. True, cancer survival rates are basically the same all around. What is the point of praying? Faith, and the possibility of beating the cancer through all you can do, the doctors do, the regimen of drugs, and the possibility of your life being extended by Him. It is natural for a human to want to live. There are published studies regarding those who are involved in a faith versus those who are not and the psychological makeup of both - look them up. No, praying is not psychological. It is done by faith. Yep, it's hard to talk into the air and believe you are being heard by something you can't see. <smile>
"If life that has rejected God is the same as a life that embraces God, then what is the point of God?" Interesting question. I guess it comes down to whether you believe life was created or you are here by chance. If you believe you were created, then seek the answers to questions why, what for, and by who? If you believe the other you still have the issue of why. You mention gamble, I suppose you have heard of the gamble of, "are you willing to gamble if I'm right?" If I'm right, then I can't wait to see the culmination of Revelation 21 and beyond. If I'm wrong, then I believe I've lived a good life and kept myself away from what I consider evil.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Your question is valid. I am glad your son is surviving and doing better. I, too, have experience with cancer. I lost both my parents. Having to experience it with children is tough, although I cannot relate, but I do empathize with you and your family. Yes, I am a person of faith and attend a protestant church. I'm not going to be able to explain why this happens, but it does. Would you agree that our surroundings are far from perfect? We could all envision a utopia couldn't we, and it would exclude death, disease, and other things. Yet, we live on this blue green ball and things just don't seem to be right. The weather misbehaves and ruins peoples lives, man misbehaves in so many ways, and what we build doesn't seem to last. Even our own bodies fail us in the end. Yet, we're here. I've yet to meet a person who isn't thankful for existing. There is a good, and evil seems to coexist with it. Cancer in a parent is an evil imo, more so in a child. Did God cause it? I don't think so. Did He allow it, one can only answer yes. Why? I don't have that answer, and probably will not ever get an answer while here anyway. All I know that is there is life that is surrounded by disease, evil, and death. Why does it happen to one and not another? You got me, but it does nonetheless. Do you have a right to be mad? Yes, down right angry imo. I certainly don't want to patronize you in any way. You have sought help, help has been provided. Other avenues (as you mentioned above) have been closed to you. I haven't followed the flow of stem cell research closely but I believe they have found a way to grow the cells. I don't defend Bush Jr, but his decision was a tough one. I don't envy anyone who ends up sitting in the oval office. For what its worth, I pray for the continued healing of your son and that you are given a long life to enjoy his presence.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Well my son dosn't have cancer, he has a disorder that causes rib and spine problems. Along with a ton of other issues. Read the opening page to this site then research more if you like www.veptr.com . If we could just agree to disagree and just coexist in this world we could a lot more done. First things first keep your god out of my affairs...
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Didn't mean to imply he did. I will read up on it. Thanks.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.