Why I'm more than just annoyed, the progression of awareness.
Offline Hello,
I'm pretty new to non-believer type forums so I thought; what better way than to start off with an essay on why I'm angry. A lot of it will be doubling up, I'm sure that all of it isn't original but I like to think that its good to vent in these types of areas. Thanks for reading!
When I was 15 years old and sitting in science class, the teacher talked about evolution. He showed several skulls of our ancestors showing a noticable progression between each skull in terms of development. What he showed me seemed logical and seemed to be accepted by people who should've been in the know. I accepted it. I wasn't annoyed when my Christian friend crossed his arms and protested, just amazed. What he did was harmless.
When I was 16 my girlfriend dumped me because God told her to in a dream. I decided that she was a nut-case and that religion wasn't at fault.
When I was 18, my friend invited me to see Passion of the Christ. I was annoyed at the director because it was a terrible film, but surely religion wasn't to blame. This was an individual's creation, right?
When I was 21, my friend was told that she wasn't to hang out with me because I wasn't Christian. I questioned my morals and wondered what it would be like to be in the loop. I even asked myself whether I should fake it to be able to mix with this breed. One thing undeniable about Christians seemed to be that they were wholesome people who banded together in a community and supported each other. No swearing, no discrimination. Most Churches I saw didn't seem extremist to me.
Many people use this argument. I might have used this argument once but certainly not now. If you take a look at these seemingly innocent groups you begin to realise what's going on. Youth groups seem harmless but are not. Some youth groups are considered to be lite versions, but this is not correct either. I think of them as 'gateway groups' which give a motive to anyone to take their religion to the next level. All you have to do is walk in and watch what's going on and any self respecting non-believer will freak out when you watch these "moderate" people putting one hand on their chest and raising the other into the air during prayer or song in worship of their 'creator.'
I now begin to get slightly annoyed when I see this. These seemingly sane people are behaving in a very strange way. If religion can make them behave this strangely, what else is in store?
I then looked a bit closer and found out that there is government funding for religions. Not only this but they're given tax free status. Why don't they pay tax? Now I'm moderately annoyed.
I became angrier when I read that they were trying to force their teachings of creationism into class-rooms all over the globe. Up until a year ago I thought that Noah's arc was a story told to kids like Santa Claus. I didn't realise people actually believed this. I was fuming when I realised that these people were sometimes given the same credibility as respected scientists.
I wasn't happy when I heard about Epistemology. This is the study of twisting words to make it sound like you have a point. An example being; "I can't taste, touch, smell, see or hear God. Why should I believe He exists." Reply "you can't taste, touch, hear, smell or see your thoughts, why should you believe they exist?" I'm sure anyone with a little lateral thinking can come up with a reply to this. Again, this 'qualification' is given the same credibility in many circles as something like physics. Its purely based on reasoning without evidence!
I became furious when I read the Bible. The Bible is a disgusting book. Plenty of other disgusting books with killing rape and murder have been published. Its common to see this stuff on TV and the movies. I enjoy watching it. The thing is; we don't take this stuff seriously. We don't live our life by it. Why would we take the Bible seriously? I had had enough when I was told "because you have inferior morals and require the Bible's guidance to make sure you live a sin free life!" That's it. It must stop here.
If we wrote that homosexuals must be stoned to death in the law, any known homosexuals could legally be stoned to death because it IS the law. Why would we accept something as disgusting as this rule in any other document that affects the way we live or shape our policy? Instead, we'll pick and choose what we listen to. I can't wait to see what happens when we start picking and choosing what parts of the law we do and don't listen to.
My friend continues to post Christian material on Facebook. One such thing told me that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God. I am subjected to this creator on a daily basis. How would they feel if I crashed a youth group spreading the 'gospel' of Darwin? I then decided its time to react when I clicked... That's what the missionary presence in Africa is up to. Whenever a missionary is deployed, whenever Christians protest abortion, whenever "Church Representitives" show up at school, whenever the government grants funds to "spiritual endeavours," we are being subjected to it. It is costing us money. It is costing my sanity. All for a God that is immature enough to punish us with eternal damnation for not believing in him?
I have had enough. Its not acceptable to say that its only a moderate influence, its more than moderate. Its not ok to say that an atheist president shouldn't be in power. Its not ok to say a nation is Christian because 52% of the population have declared themselves that way inclined. Its not ok that I am told without even asking the question that my entire family is going to hell. Its not ok that when I'm a father I'll be worried about people trying to brainwash my child. Its not ok to show up at my house while I'm eating dinner to tell me about it. Its not ok to invest funding into SCHOOL Chaplains instead of trained councillors.
Its not ok to look at me as if there's something wrong when I declare that I don't believe, yet continue preach religious freedom.
Its time we stop laying back passively waiting for this to go away and do something.
I hope people here are as angry as me. Thank-you for reading.
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Thanks for the post I too feel the same way. I have a son with special needs do you think inwan one of these Christian nut jobs telling him, (he did this all for) shit? That scares the shit out of me. My son will be raised to know that he has a rare condition that just happened. I don't want him to come home one day and ask me why did god do this to me? I am with you on all accounts. Angry, livied, and just plain pissed...
I told my wife once that I want to try to open a atheist gatthering spot. You know on sunday next to one of the BIG churches. It is my right to do so, what stops me is the guilt of knowing that one or more of us would get hurt. That is a real fear. Now Christian my say that I'm wrong but come on, think about it.
I hope that one day the " I had a dream" moment will come for us!
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Hi Jimmy,
I'm not a father yet, but in about 3 weeks I will be. At the moment I hear a lot about Christian groups storming schools and spreading their beliefs. They hand out pamphlets saying that dinosaurs walked the Earth at the same time as humans until the great flood. This is a recent bit of news. The government handed out 220 million dollars to fund school Chaplains. I don't want my future son to be subjected to this nonsense. I'd rather that they give 220 million dollars to qualified school councillers.
I think you're absolutely right about your son questioning God if he's fed enough nonsense. The best way to combat this is logic. I remember as a child I used to question why God (if He existed) made me fall off my bike or get in trouble at school. I then realised those things were to do with me and nothing else. I think that if he realises this he won't be susceptable to nonsense.
You should open an atheist group. I'm tempted to do so myself. Start small, write letters to newspapers I reckon. Get a few people around you that are angry. Find an anti-abortion rally and hold up pro-choice signs. What really annoys me is that its ok to put "if you don't believe in God you'll burn in hell" on busses, but "Atheism, celebrate reason" is too offensive.
Regarding your last question, I don't think it is that hard. I've always believed this simply because I've never had anything else shoved down my throat.
Thanks for reading my post, all the best with your future endeavours!
Thank you and btw I'm mom to Jimmys son. I haven't always agreed with Jimmy on all his views. I did on some but it took me a little longer to just say f*@k it and forget about it. I think it took our son going through all this crap and listening to what people have to say about it for me to realize I can't sit back and let my son listen to people say "it was gods will" or "if you pray you will get better". That kid is here because he wants to be and because we've done everything to make sure he is. so in a way I feel that if there is a god, I have defeated his will.
I totally agree with Jimmy as far as starting an atheist church if you will lol. I do think it would be very tough but why are only christian churches allowed? This is were I get kinda pissed about things because there really is no equality at all. We have this thing called freedom of speech but atheist aren't allowed to open a service for what they believe in? It reminds me of when blacks were slaves and the kkk would burn their churches with them in it. I would have to think it would be something like that. Sad really.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
I agree with what you say. The crux of the case for me is what you point out here - that unsubstantiated claims about something that can't be proven by naturalistic empiricism and that can't be proved through philosophical thought nevertheless lead a group of humans who really want to be saved to take the position that we 'sinners' are morally corrupt for disagreeing with them and that we have 'chosen' torment. I guess they think of sinners as subhumans in the gulags.
Of course, theirs is a belief system that ignores the truth that human morality and the human imagination in association with the natural world spawned religion, not the other way around. Some christians take a less odious position - Dave Richards elsewhere here for instance, apparently adopts higher ground but I think there has to be a rubber meets road point even for enlightened christians.
Dave believes atheists are wrong - using the term "village atheists" to describe our naive rationalism on the apparent basis that emergent concepts of truth and reason springing from the human brain as a result of its interaction with the natural world can't be scientifically proved part of reality. Somewhere in his belief we are wrong must lie a consequence, though he has not revealed what that consequence is yet. Maybe god gives us all a K Bar and a Jelly Tip and apologises for programming us with a religious Dunning-Kruger subset.
I like the sound of Dave but his antipathy towards adhom from atheists does not include an admission that much of the bible is based on an adhom against all humanity. And so far it appears he thinks atheists are too stupid to philosophically embrace the great truth that an observer not of the universe is required to perceive it. I may be doing him a disservice suggesting this but perhaps not.
Anyway, having a fundy upbringing with associated guilt and fear means I see religion as a threat to children. I see it as child abuse. If someone told my kid they were going to hell my reaction would be unpredictable to say the least.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Nice to have you and Jimmy on board. Love your knickers, BTW. Where'd you get them? My girl's an anglican minister's daughter. I'm sure she'd love some of those.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Welcome to the forum.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Hi Rebecca, thanks for your reply. Did quite a few people tell him that it was God's will? If so that's pretty horrible, like adding insult to injury. If he's here because he wants to be, despite what he's heard "spiritually" then more power to him, he's probably got a stronger more moral will than those claiming God as their savior. I'd agree with you that you've defeated his will... If I believed in him (haha). I believed you've beaten a strong and un-just religious influence and for that I'm very happy.
As far as an organisation, I don't know if I'd want to label it Church, but that will work for now. Maybe organisation? The main problem is that the idea of it would be anti-religious, but you wouldn't want to appear religious in the process. Maybe just a gathering of friends that are like minded in opinions and goals. I think that I might just be a 1 man army on this, go start handing out evolution and Richard Dawkins pamphlets outside the major Churches, see how they react. Maybe walk in there and declare myself an Atheist, ask for them to convince me of why to join. Maybe if I throw enough rational questions out there people within the Church will start to question their beliefs. I doubt it would be effective, but if even one of them decided to denounce their faith, it would be worth it.
Atheistextremist; in terms of the Epistemological arguments regarding empirical evidence (my what a mouthful) we got into a big argument about proof. His point was that since you couldn't empirically prove that thoughts exist that I'm saying they don't exist at all. I then said to him that we can observe thoughts in a very crude method. We can observe a human brain lighting up on an MRI. He asked whether time didn't exist because we couldn't observe it. I told him that time is a part of motion. Every time we look at a watch we're observing time. Even by watching a car move down the road we're observing change in distance over time. Time can easily be observed with our eyes, ears, nose, taste and smell. If time were frozen we would be incapable of observing these. Getting slightly off point there, his retort was to simply pull out the fact that he was a qualified Epistemologist. He said that what I was saying would embarass anyone that was qualified in this feild. I decided that since he was being patronizing it was time to end the argument. I told him that I was also qualified in this field because I know English and have common sense. He didn't really respond a whole lot afterwards.
Dave's point I guess is sort of interesting, as I understand he's saying that we could all be globs of glue floating in space communicating by going rawr rawr rawr but having scrambled signals fed to the brain making it seem as though we're really humans living on a planet called Earth? Is he saying that reality and what we think reality is are two completely different things because of the whole eye of the beholder thing?
Anyways, I might finish this post with something that really grinds my gears. Someone once accused Richard Dawkins of having faith in science. This is so totally wrong. You can't have faith in science. Science is pretty much studying what's going on and forming a theory based on evidence. Science is the opposite to faith. If there is no evidence, you're operating on faith and science ceases to be science. I hear this mentioned too many times and the people that accuse atheists of having faith in science always get away with it.
Thanks for reading and for your responses guys!
I realize I made an error last night. Slavery and the kkk were different eras but hey, it was like 1 am and I was tired in my defence.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
I will take this one. It wasn't that people would tell him that it was Gods will but rather us. You see me and Becky both come from christian (hypocritical ) back grounds. Now having said that i will give you the quick run down. I spent most of youth asking myself the age old question why are we here, and how did we get here? I still stuck with the faith thing through it all. I quess I started really have a hard time with it arround 15 or 16. I discused it with my grandmother who was a great influece in my life. She was what you would call a devote christian. This is the only person I ever met that I believed when she told me that she had never said a curse word in her life. Now this was my rolemodel growing up. I asked her to explain the after life to me, surely if any christian could she could. She gave me the cookie cutter answers that all christians are programed to give. This went on for more than two years. She finale told me that she didn't have the answers that I was looking for. I still push on with the faith thing more than 6 years after that expecting to find the answer.
It was finale that I started to think for myself and put all the other people out of my head that reality finally clicked. Don't think that I was ever a Bible thumping Christian BTW but still faith based. When my son was born and the family, and friends tell you this will make you stronger it only made me stronger against this sick twisted religion that people had shoved at me for so long. Music plays a big role in my life, and one song stuck out at me TOOL
Hi Rebecca, thanks for your reply. Did quite a few people tell him that it was God's will? If so that's pretty horrible, like adding insult to injury. If he's here because he wants to be, despite what he's heard "spiritually" then more power to him, he's probably got a stronger more moral will than those claiming God as their savior. I'd agree with you that you've defeated his will... If I believed in him (haha). I believed you've beaten a strong and un-just religious influence and for that I'm very happy.
As far as an organisation, I don't know if I'd want to label it Church, but that will work for now. Maybe organisation? The main problem is that the idea of it would be anti-religious, but you wouldn't want to appear religious in the process. Maybe just a gathering of friends that are like minded in opinions and goals. I think that I might just be a 1 man army on this, go start handing out evolution and Richard Dawkins pamphlets outside the major Churches, see how they react. Maybe walk in there and declare myself an Atheist, ask for them to convince me of why to join. Maybe if I throw enough rational questions out there people within the Church will start to question their beliefs. I doubt it would be effective, but if even one of them decided to denounce their faith, it would be worth it.
Atheistextremist; in terms of the Epistemological arguments regarding empirical evidence (my what a mouthful) we got into a big argument about proof. His point was that since you couldn't empirically prove that thoughts exist that I'm saying they don't exist at all. I then said to him that we can observe thoughts in a very crude method. We can observe a human brain lighting up on an MRI. He asked whether time didn't exist because we couldn't observe it. I told him that time is a part of motion. Every time we look at a watch we're observing time. Even by watching a car move down the road we're observing change in distance over time. Time can easily be observed with our eyes, ears, nose, taste and smell. If time were frozen we would be incapable of observing these. Getting slightly off point there, his retort was to simply pull out the fact that he was a qualified Epistemologist. He said that what I was saying would embarass anyone that was qualified in this feild. I decided that since he was being patronizing it was time to end the argument. I told him that I was also qualified in this field because I know English and have common sense. He didn't really respond a whole lot afterwards.
Dave's point I guess is sort of interesting, as I understand he's saying that we could all be globs of glue floating in space communicating by going rawr rawr rawr but having scrambled signals fed to the brain making it seem as though we're really humans living on a planet called Earth? Is he saying that reality and what we think reality is are two completely different things because of the whole eye of the beholder thing?
Anyways, I might finish this post with something that really grinds my gears. Someone once accused Richard Dawkins of having faith in science. This is so totally wrong. You can't have faith in science. Science is pretty much studying what's going on and forming a theory based on evidence. Science is the opposite to faith. If there is no evidence, you're operating on faith and science ceases to be science. I hear this mentioned too many times and the people that accuse atheists of having faith in science always get away with it.
Thanks for reading and for your responses guys!
I will take this one. It wasn't that people would tell him that it was Gods will but rather us. You see me and Becky both come from christian (hypocritical ) back grounds. Now having said that i will give you the quick run down. I spent most of youth asking myself the age old question why are we here, and how did we get here? I still stuck with the faith thing through it all. I quess I started really have a hard time with it arround 15 or 16. I discused it with my grandmother who was a great influece in my life. She was what you would call a devote christian. This is the only person I ever met that I believed when she told me that she had never said a curse word in her life. Now this was my rolemodel growing up. I asked her to explain the after life to me, surely if any christian could she could. She gave me the cookie cutter answers that all christians are programed to give. This went on for more than two years. She finale told me that she didn't have the answers that I was looking for. I still push on with the faith thing more than 6 years after that expecting to find the answer.
It was finale that I started to think for myself and put all the other people out of my head that reality finally clicked. Don't think that I was ever a Bible thumping Christian BTW but still faith based. When my son was born and the family, and friends tell you this will make you stronger it only made me stronger against this sick twisted religion that people had shoved at me for so long. Music plays a big role in my life, and one song stuck out at me TOOL
Eulogy He had alot to say. He had alot of nothing to say. We'll miss him. So long. We wish you well. You told us how you weren't afraid to die. Well then, so long. Don't cry. Or feel too down. Not all martyrs see divinity. But at least you tried. Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud. We'll miss him. Ranting and pointing his finger at everything but his heart. We'll miss him. No way to recall what it was that you had said to me, Like I care at all. So loud. You sure could yell. You took a stand on every little thing and so loud. Standing above the crowd, he had a voice so strong and loud and I swallowed his façade cuz I'm so eager to identify with someone above the ground, someone who seemed to feel the same, someone prepared to lead the way, with someone who would die for me. Will you? Will you now? Would you die for me? Don't you fuckin' lie. Don't you step out of line. Don't you fuckin lie. You've claimed all this time that you would die for me. Why then are you so surprised to hear your own eulogy? You had alot to say. You had alot of nothing to say. Come down. Get off your fuckin cross. We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr. To ascend you must die. You must be crucified for your sins and your lies. Goodbye...
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Dont know what just happened on that last post but things just moved around by themselves. Was that a sign????
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Glad to have you here, Flier (and Jimmy and Rebecca).
Hahaha, that's so funny. A 'qualified' epistemologist using an argument from authority fallacy! Gah!
The problem is not epistemology -- which is merely the study of "How do we know things?" -- the problem is that this guy is hiding behind his supposed 'qualifications'. There is good epistemology (pragmatic, empirical) and there is bad epistemology, and being a 'qualified' epistemologist doesn't answer whether he supports a good or a bad epistemological position. My guess is it's a bad one. If it includes the concept of 'faith' as a way to know things, it is undoubtedly a bad epistemology. And he may be very qualified to talk about his bad epistemology, but that doesn't make him right about anything. An expert on ghosts is still a quack.
More likely he was projecting his own embarrassment at not being able to answer your clear counter-example.
We could all be living in the Matrix, but is there any reason to believe that's true? No. The principle of Occam's Razor helps us to discard fanciful theories that have no solid basis. We know what's true because we are able to make useful predictions.
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I wish I knew cuz I'd run out and buy some. This is just a pic found on photobucket
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
So I got curious and I'm guessing you two are going to have to find some knickers and then find someone who does screen printing or embroidery who will put it on for you. The script looks to be one of the standard Gothic fonts.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Jimmy knows how to do screen printing. Embroidering would make the ass itch.
It would take an act of congress to get him to do it but I see me starting my own business if I can get him to.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
I'd be tempted to buy a pair - though I'm wondering if watching the old man split a gut laughing would be insulting or fun. Sigh, wish I was as tall as the woman in the pic.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Well I'm thinking bras and nighties too. Just start an athiest of hollywood lol. I could sell the whips and chains and you can spank him with it if he laughed. He'd stop laughing.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
He would start in on the crocodile tears and I would start laughing --- does sound like fun, huh? Let us know when you open your online shop, okay?
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Ha I sure will. Jimmy's in for it now. I got a million ideas. Sorry David, I know we are way off subject.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
This isn't the first thread I've high jacked and it probably won't be the last. If people are going to get upset about it, they will have to let me know. No one has griped - so far.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
That's true. I don't think anyone cares. This guy seems pretty cool too. When his wife has that baby I'm sure he'll want a pair.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Flier,
Congratulations on your first one! Good luck and have fun!
I live on the buckle of the bible belt and my daughter is a second grader. Until know she has very little clue of what religion is and what is church. I am quite sure that the most brutal and inhumane indoctrination happens at age 5-9 when kids become curious about death. And they are bloody scared by the concept that they will die! All you need to do to indoctrinate them in anything you want is to tell them that they will not die or that they will be somehow rewarded if they believe in whatever you tell them. If you tell them about science of death and the idea that all we are remembered for living good lives, the danger is almost over. I'll tell you in a few year. I'm my self very afraid what will happen when my girl enters middle and then high school. This place is not Boston or Portland to such a degree that it is not not even funny.
Best,
100%
Hi everyone, sorry about the late reply here, have been away from a computer for the weekend.
Jimmy, I'm always happy to hear about people that have left faith through common sense. That's pretty much what my girlfriend did, but I'm sure she wouldn't be too happy about me elaborating much on that. Its just good to know. I love Tool, my favourite track is "The Pot." My girlfriend's favourite is Eulogy. She wants it played at her funeral haha!
Hi Natural, thanks for your input there. Thinking about it, I was probably too harsh on Epistemology, I really don't understand what its about all that well myself and the fact that it was a bad Epistemologist who was also an evangelical I was arguing with probably didn't help his cause. He linked a youtube of a lecture he'd done but by then I'd heard enough and decided not to watch it. I think you're absolutely right that he's a bad epistemologist. If he were good he'd want to take the time to discuss it in detail rather than link stuff to me. I'm a flight instructor myself, I teach Chinese Airline Cadets who will go on to fly the Airbus A320 in China Southern Airlines and if I get asked any questions regarding aviation from anyone I know I instantly want to tell them as much as I can A) because I'm interested passionately by the subject and B) because I like to demonstrate that I know what I'm on about. Obviously he lacked either one or both of those attributes. Either way it did not make him a good ambassador for his cause.
CJ, you may hijack any of my threads any time you please. I'm very flattered.
100percentatheist, I agree with you totally. I think that one of the best ways is not to tell my kid what to think. Being a flight instructor, I find the best way to convince someone of the right thing is by asking them common sense questions that can only lead to one conclusion. Maybe compare what it says in the bible with fairy tales to get an idea of just what's there. Talk to him about all the killing and immoral behavior. I reckon you should never tell, only show. Its always better if people can make up their own minds, even if it is your own child who you wouldn't want to see fall into the trap that is religion. Hell, often the best way to put someone off religion is to get them to read the bloody bible. Don't give me sleeping pills, a bible will work just fine thanks!
Cheers everyone for reading and for your input!
David